Government Operations Committee on April 24th, 2020

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Minister, I was just about to say that I apologize for not being here to welcome you personally at the start of the meeting but I understand that you have to leave.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Unfortunately, yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Go ahead, Minister.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I just want to thank you, Mr. Chair. I find it slightly ironic that the last committee appearance I had was on March 13, the day the House rose, and that the next guest you have at OGGO happens to be me as well, in the middle of this crisis.

I want to thank you and your committee for the excellent questions that I received today.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Minister, thank you for your appearance and for your kind words. We look forward to seeing you again sometime in the near future, hopefully.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Yes, hopefully. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Colleagues, while the minister takes her leave we'll continue on. We do have the officials who accompanied her.

I see no need to suspend the meeting, since we are meeting virtually, so we'll go directly to our next questioner, who will be member Aboultaif.

Ziad, you have five minutes.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Good morning to all. I'm glad to see everybody is safe. I hope your families are too.

We know there is recent news about empty planes coming back to Canada from China without any PPE supplies. Why did these planes come back empty?

[Bill Matthews, Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services]

It's good to see everyone.

In terms of the empty planes, there are a couple of things to say.

There were a few empty planes that left the airports and only one of them was a Government of Canada plane. As mentioned earlier, the Shanghai airports, and all airports in China in fact, are extremely busy. On the weekend in question, there was a lot of bad weather going on, with heavy rain. Effectively what happened was the goods were unable to get from the warehouse to be loaded onto a plane in time for departure.

We have lots of planes lined up and obviously the empty plane was not ideal. Because of the rules around crew, in terms of managing their workload and time in the air, the carrier had to take off with an empty load. We've since had additional planes behind it, and we're getting ready to run about one plane per day in the near future.

Congestion at the airport, heavy rain and unfortunate circumstances is the short answer.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Mr. Matthews, the crew is allowed to stay for 12 hours, especially overnight, on the tarmac. You have 17 hours before you send in the planes, whether from Vancouver or another location in Canada.

How come we are not ready to load and are not alert to the fact that we need to bring the product close to the airport, to the warehouses there, so we can load the planes?

[Bill Matthews]

It's a little more complicated than that in that the airport is extraordinarily busy. We do actually have a warehouse that we're making use of at the airport, and that's where we store our products. Basically it's a constant lining up of goods to make sure they clear customs in our warehouse and are ready to go. We then have a protocol for—

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Why hasn't the private sector been experiencing those difficulties? It's a question we need to ask. Also, how many cancellations have we had with Cargojet and Air Canada? What is the cost of each cancellation?

[Bill Matthews]

Just to be clear, Mr. Chair, one plane from the Government of Canada was left empty, but it was not the only one. This is not a unique issue for the Government of Canada, and I want to clarify that for the member. No matter who you're dealing with, nobody wants to send an empty plane home.

Grosso modo, for the cost of a flight, depending on the type of plane, the carrier and the load, you're looking at between $600,000 to $800,000 a flight. That just gives you a rough ballpark.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Is that U.S. dollars or Canadian dollars?

[Bill Matthews]

That's Canadian dollars.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Okay.

We know that Deloitte has been a supply chain facilitator since April 1. The plane was sent four days ago. We have information telling us that the government bypassed Deloitte and that's why the plane—or planes, actually, as there was more than one plane—came back empty. Because the government bypassed Deloitte, Deloitte basically did not verify the shipment. That's why the plane came back empty.

Can you explain that?

[Bill Matthews]

Mr. Chair, I'm not sure where the member got that information, but at the end of the day, PSPC is accountable for what gets on our flights. We are using the assistance of the private sector. Deloitte plays a role in vetting suppliers and helping us with our supply chain, but the goods we're talking about were cleared by customs in the warehouse and ready for loading. The actual issue of the plane not getting loaded had nothing to do with Deloitte's role.

At the end of the day, it's PSPC's job to make arrangements to make sure that our cargo gets loaded. It was not a Deloitte issue, so I'm not sure where that's coming from.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Do you have an exclusive contract with one of the airlines? I know the minister mentioned Cargojet and Air Canada. Is there an exclusive contract for shipping or carrying the product with those two companies?

[Bill Matthews]

We have arrangements with both Cargojet and Air Canada on an ongoing basis. Early on, we had used a couple of other carriers as well, but going forward it's been Air Canada and Cargojet on an ongoing basis.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much.

Our next speaker will be Mr. Drouin.

Francis, you're up.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have a question with regard to the relationship between PSPC and the Public Health Agency. How does that work?

After that I want you to comment on—and I'm directing the question to Mr. Matthews, but feel free to pass it on to whomever can best respond—PSPC and the relationship with the provinces. How are the needs determined across Canada? The minister said she has a biweekly call with ministers, but I'm assuming there are many more calls that are happening with your counterparts at the provincial level. I'm just asking you to comment on how that works.

[Bill Matthews]

Thank you for the question.

I have a couple of comments. Yes, as the member mentioned, I have some friends with me, and I'll be happy to turn to them should I need some help.

The Public Health Agency, like other departments, is a client of PSPC, so when it places orders we do our best to fill them and we talk about schedules and need. What's unique about the current circumstance is that in normal times provinces, territories and others, hospitals, health authorities, etc., would do their own ordering. Because of the crisis, there is a role here for the federal government at the health tables with the provincial and territorial governments. There's been some collaboration through the health departments to put collaborative orders in place. There's ongoing dialogue between the Public Health Agency, the Department of Health in Canada and its provincial and territorial counterparts to assess orders, assess needs and then give PSPC, effectively, large orders to place. Those large orders are very important in terms of getting the attention of potential suppliers in a very competitive market, as was highlighted earlier. That's the interplay.

The ongoing needs of the provinces and territories are absolutely done through the health tables. That's an important dialogue there, and then our intersection is with the Public Health Agency and Health Canada.

The table you're referring to, which the minister referred to, is one where she has a regular check-in with her ministerial colleagues, which is a combination of.... In some cases provinces have put health ministers forward as their representatives, and in other cases it's more an equivalent to the minister of PSPC, just to have an ongoing dialogue about common issues, what we can do better, where the gaps are and to help fill that in, but there are, as the member suggested, many conversations that go on among federal and provincial counterparts. The most important ones, I would say, are at the health tables, which talk about the need, forecasts and any potential shortages.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Thank you.

We've heard the minister also comment on how personal protective equipment is distributed across Canada. I'm assuming that it's the Public Health Agency that has worked with its provincial colleagues to determine that particular formula.

[Bill Matthews]

That is correct. It is worked through by the Public Health Agency of Canada with its colleagues. That is from an ongoing order perspective. Obviously, if there's an acute shortage that pops up, we will be taking steps to manage that, but it is worked out with the Public Health Agency of Canada and its counterparts.

The distribution formula is done through the federal-provincial tables, and it's a predetermined formula for our ongoing needs.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Talk to me about how the contracting works and how that's changed the sense of urgency within PSPC to contract. Have you deployed an internal SWAT team to deal with particular companies in Canada?

We've also talked about ramping up capacity in Canada. How does your department work with different companies to make sure that...? We've talked about ventilators. We've heard the great stories in Canada, but how does your department engage with them to ensure they can produce that protective equipment?