Government Operations Committee on Feb. 1st, 2021

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you.

As you said, the pandemic exacerbates all situations. Do you think that the pandemic is now being used as an excuse for the government to do whatever it wants, thinking that no one will be monitoring it and no one will see anything?

Don't you think that this excuse shouldn't exist?

[Sean Holman]

I don't know the mind of government, but this should also be an opportunity for us to bring in more transparency measures. Because these problems are being highlighted and illuminated, it creates an opportunity for everyone in this room to raise these issues with their constituents and in Parliament, and to get some better transparency laws than the ones we have had in the past.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Mr. Paul-Hus, you have 30 seconds.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Is the legislation being introduced by Senator Carignan the right legislation for you?

[Sean Holman]

Perhaps. As I say, we need a large disclosure of records and a law that forces that large disclosure, as well as some of the whistle-blowing recommendations that the COVID-19 Accountability Group is making.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Mr. Holman.

Thank you, Mr. Paul-Hus.

We'll now go to Mr. Jowhari, for five minutes.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome to our witnesses, once again.

Let me start with Mr. Cutler.

You indicated in your opening remarks, as well as in response to a number of questions my colleague raised, that you are very much interested in contracts. You like to see the details. You've reviewed many of the government contracts. That means you're quite familiar with the standard contract the government probably issues. You also said you understand that some of them are shared and some of them are not shared.

Let me start with a fundamental question. Do you believe that the Government of Canada procurement contract is a complete and comprehensive set of building blocks that, if followed, will protect us?

[Allan Cutler]

You used the words “if followed”. Yes, the laws and the rules as written are good. They're probably sufficient. This does respect the need in urgent situations such as pandemics, floods and fires to have to react quickly, and what to do and how to do different procurement practices during that. I don't have a problem with that.

You mentioned my procurement. My procurement background is that I did 30 years in the federal public service. I know the process. I know the contracts. I look at them and understand them very quickly. I also understand the documents that should be there, but unless I can see them, I don't know if they are there.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Perfect. Thank you. Let me ask a follow-up question.

Having that much experience, what do you think are the risks associated with sharing some or all of the parts of contracts? Do you believe there is any risk, in any dimension, associated with sharing any of these details of the contracts?

[Allan Cutler]

I can make it very simple: No, I don't think there is any risk in sharing the basic information in a contract. That's the normal practice. It's already done—

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

My apologies for interrupting you. You're not looking for basic information. You're suggesting the detailed information. Can you help me understand what is the difference between the detailed and the basic information?

[Allan Cutler]

The detailed information would be regarding how a firm, if they have a product exclusive to them, produced it. But the fact that they have the product.... If I'm buying a million of that product, I should be able to know how much the government is paying for that product. The basic contract gives you a ton of information. It's generally only proprietary information that is redacted, and that is not a large portion, especially not when you're buying a product.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Mr. Cutler, you said that you don't believe there is any risk. How would you explain the fact that as a result of some of our procurement strategies—or some of the procurement that we had done regarding PPE—becoming public, some of the products all of a sudden got redirected or rescheduled? Wouldn't you consider it a risk that when some of that information is made available we may lose the opportunity to be able to secure those products? That actually has an impact on the public safety and health of Canadians.

[Allan Cutler]

Thank you.

If you're talking about something during a negotiation, which is pre-contracting, that's a different situation than when you have a contract with definite deliveries and definite everything in it. The danger we have is not whether we have the information. As Sean and Ian have both pointed out, it's a transparency issue. When you cover up, it's like a dark room. Fungus and mushrooms can grow. They don't grow in daylight. If you want to protect things from wrongdoing, you have to be open and transparent.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you for that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

You have 15 seconds, Mr. Jowhari.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

I'll give my colleagues the 15 seconds.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Mr. Jowhari.

We'll go to Ms. Vignola for two and a half minutes.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have some questions for you, Mr. Bron.

The Public Servants Disclosure Protection Act came into force in 2007. In your opinion, is a whistle-blower better treated now than in 2007?

[Ian Bron]

Do you mean the federal whistle-blowing law from 2007?

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Yes.

[Ian Bron]

Well, in theory, yes—I mean, there are statutory protections—but in actuality, no, there are just too many loopholes in the law. Most of the law is dedicated to directing whistle-blowers through certain channels and making sure that they can report only certain things—one misstep and it all goes wrong. As Mr. Cutler was saying, the system doesn't really have the trust of employees anymore.

Also, that's just for the public sector. There is nothing for the private sector. In cases like this, where you have contracting with the private sector, you're going to see wrongdoing on both sides of the transaction. The current law doesn't even allow the Integrity Commissioner to go into the private sector to find out the truth.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

What could be done to ensure that whistle-blowers are truly protected by this legislation and that they're no longer afraid of losing their jobs or suffering near-disastrous consequences if they blow the whistle?

[Ian Bron]

I would just direct the committee back to its own report from 2017. There were some excellent recommendations there.

That said, some of the people who gave testimony suggested a complete rewrite of the law to best practices. There are countries out there, such as Ireland and Serbia, that have excellent laws that cover both the public and the private sector.

There are two approaches. You could either go back to the drawing board or start implementing some of the recommendations that OGGO itself made.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Cutler, the parliamentarians, the public and even the parliamentary budget officer haven't had the opportunity to see any contracts, figures or agreements related to the vaccines.

Do you know whether this type of situation exists in countries other than Canada?