Government Operations Committee on May 3rd, 2021

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Okay.

I have a question for you, as well as Ms. Sultan.

Peter Drucker is famous for the comment, “If you can't measure it, you can't improve it.”

I'm looking at both departmental plans. Neither one of them mentions specific goals for achieving this. It's all, “to be decided”, “to be decided”.

With regard to your departmental results for PSPC—the last one that came out—it's the same thing: “to be decided”; “goals to be set for March 31, 2020”, which of course has now passed by a year.

Why are we not actually putting in goals for such an important thing in the departmental plans?

[Lorenzo Ieraci]

Mr. Chair, I'll say a couple of things on the departmental results report that was most recently issued.

There are indicators in terms of increasing the participation of indigenous businesses, as well as a separate indicator in terms of increasing the participation of women-owned businesses—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I'm looking—

[Lorenzo Ieraci]

Oh, apologies.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I'm looking at departmental results: Target to be decided 2018. Not applicable. 2019, not applicable. 2020, not applicable. Departmental plans to be decided by next year, or date to be achieved by next year, but a goal to be decided. Results not applicable. Not applicable. Not applicable.

We haven't set any goals to actually hold the department accountable. We pretend to want to deliver outcomes for indigenous or under-represented or women, but then the department doesn't actually set any goals for itself. Thus we end up where we are with our 2018 study: “Well, we're working hard on it, but we don't have any outcome to show any results.”

[Lorenzo Ieraci]

The notes underneath the departmental report in terms of the indicators for women-owned and indigenous businesses indicate the fact we're either looking to be able to establish a baseline including—

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Mr. McCauley.

We'll now go to Mr. Weiler for five minutes.

[Patrick Weiler, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd also like to thank the witnesses for joining us today for a really interesting study that we're doing. I have quite enjoyed the interventions.

My first question is for the witness from Indigenous Services Canada.

In your opening remarks, you mentioned that ISC is funding studies to identify indigenous capacity in specific regions and/or commodities. I was hoping you could elaborate on the work that's being done there, and if ISC has identified particular gaps that it's seeking to fill to ensure that we have more robust indigenous engagement in procurement.

[Jessica Sultan]

Thank you for the question.

One example I would point to as a tangible undertaking and outcome has been the work Indigenous Services Canada has done with Cando during the COVID-19 pandemic. A task force was led to identify where indigenous businesses could meet the demand for personal protective equipment, for example, as a response to the pandemic, and to ensure that capacity was well leveraged with the federal government's buying power in response to the need for PPE.

In addition, that study was able to identify where there were potential gaps in what indigenous businesses could provide, which was very useful to be able to target certain parts of the market and ensure we were leveraging indigenous procurement as much as possible.

There are a number of other studies. I could point also to a recent study that was undertaken by the Canadian Council for Aboriginal Business, which again outlines essentially where capacity exists and where there may be capacity gaps, which allows Indigenous Services Canada to then target our outreach and capacity building with those suppliers.

[Patrick Weiler, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Thank you for that.

You also mentioned in your opening that in the fall of 2019, ISC launched the new indigenous business directory. Could you speak to the benefits that indigenous-owned businesses get by being on this list?

[Jessica Sultan]

I would be happy to.

First and foremost, the list is a database that is known within the federal government and is used as a reliable source of information by federal procurement officers. Therefore, it would be advantageous for a business to be registered on that database, because it would raise awareness of that business and be an easier conduit by which federal procurement officers could reach that business to award a contract.

In addition, registration through the indigenous business database is also supported by education components from ISC personnel working with the businesses to ensure that business could best understand the federal procurement process and the means by which it can be most effectively navigated.

[Patrick Weiler, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Thanks for that.

As a follow-up, and maybe this is also a question for PSPC, are your departments proactively looking at the goods and services offered by indigenous-owned businesses that are not on this list, or is it more reactive to when there is a call for proposal or tenders put out for specific goods and services that the government's looking for?

[Jessica Sultan]

I'd like to start the answer and then welcome my colleague Mr. Ieraci to add, should he wish.

When federal procurement is undertaken, it's not mandatory that the indigenous business database be used unless it's a mandatory set-aside under the procurement strategy for aboriginal business.

The mandatory set-asides are located in specific areas, for example, comprehensive land claim agreement obligations. Areas where 80% or more of the population are indigenous would be another example. The procurement there would be a mandatory set-aside and therefore the use of the indigenous business database is required. However, in other procurements that are not mandatory set-asides under the procurement strategy for aboriginal business, the database is not mandatory, and therefore vendors would not be precluded from bidding on a contract if they were not on the indigenous business database.

I hope that was clear. I'd be happy to provide more response.

[Patrick Weiler, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

It was very clear.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you very much.

We will now go to Ms. Vignola for two and a half minutes.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you very much.

Earlier, Mr. McCauley talked about the importance of setting goals so that you can measure outcomes. I come from the field of education where, for the last 15 years, we have had to have plans for each of the schools, which must include not only goals, but also ways to achieve those goals and measure the results.

Mr. Ieraci, how does your department plan to improve data capture, analysis, and reporting to diversify the federal provider pool?

If there is a perceived need for improvement, then there is a problem, a challenge, or gaps. What are those problems?

[Lorenzo Ieraci]

The databases are very important. Right now, we are having trouble identifying the participation rate of underrepresented groups and the number of contracts awarded to firms owned by underrepresented individuals. So we are working to address gaps in two areas.

First, we are building on the report filed in June 2018 and the work we have done since then. We realized that we did not have a policy in place that allows us to collect information about the companies we do business with. We are in the process of developing a policy that will give us that right.

Second, we need a system that can collect the information and save it. I mentioned earlier the e-procurement system, which allows us to collect that information. When the policy is in place, this system will allow us to get much more information about participation and contracts awarded to different groups.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Why didn't this data collection exist before? We've been hearing about diversification for a long time, and this program has been around since 1986. That's 35 years, if I'm calculating correctly.

Why, 35 years later, do we still not have accurate data on this topic?

[Lorenzo Ieraci]

Thank you for the question.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Ms. Vignola. I hate to interrupt. It's a very good question.

Mr. Ieraci, if you could respond to that one in writing, it would be greatly appreciated.

We'll now go to Mr. Green for two and a half minutes.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Very important questions are being asked here, and I'm also curious how, absent the disaggregated race-based data, they're able to define what diversity actually looks like.

PSPC sought feedback through industry consultations on the methods for verifying whether a supplier meets the definition of a diverse supplier. What was the verification method that the industries used?

[Lorenzo Ieraci]

A number of different approaches are used by different industries. Some will use self-attestation or self-identification. Others will rely on third party certification bodies, such as the CAMSC, which is the Canadian Aboriginal and Minority Supplier Council.

Different approaches are used by different industries in confirming or verifying the identity of a company.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

In the federal contractors program, systems for audits are in place. Does your department have within it the capability of providing audits that would keep in line with the federal contractors program, or is that solely in the purview of ESDC?

[Lorenzo Ieraci]

That's solely within the purview of ESDC. To refer to a previous question from another member of the committee, it's about obtaining identity information on the owners or managers of companies. In terms of specific employees within companies, that would be under Employment and Social Development Canada for the program that was referenced.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Understanding that we've had set-asides that have been identified which haven't perhaps been fully maximized, and understanding that the previous speaker asked about set targets, I do want to give you the opportunity. What is the date for us to receive set targets within your departmental plan to ensure that the stated outcomes that you have presented to us in these programs are actually going to be met? Shall I expect three years from now to be back at the same spot asking you the same questions?