Government Operations Committee on May 12th, 2021

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

We're not getting it in the room either, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

We do not appear to be getting any French translation.

[The Clerk of the Committee, Mr. Paul Cardegna]

Mr. Chair, I was hearing translation on the French channel, but if you give me a moment, please, I will ask the technician to look into it. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you.

[The Clerk]

For the benefit of the technicians, I will continue speaking, so they can check the translation.

I want to make sure the interpretation is working properly.

The technicians are suggesting we try again, Mr. Chair.

If you could please try, I would appreciate it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Mr. Clerk, and thank you, Mr. McCauley.

Mr. Ermuth, it appears that when you were answering, there was no translation. If you could repeat your answer, we would start from there.

[Roger Ermuth]

Absolutely. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Since the beginning of the pandemic, we have had conversations, both with the CFOs as well as deputy heads in terms of the fact that we would need to have additional flexibility. As a result of that, some of the funds and some of the controls that maybe weren't in there at the front would have to be looked post-audit, looking at it at the end.

In terms of a direct answer to the question, yes, we have had conversations with the departments around making sure that they are looking at and adjusting appropriately their systems of internal controls to maintain good stewardship of government funds.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you.

We know that companies have received huge sums of money in connection with personal protective equipment contracts. Some people even started companies a week before they got the contract. They received tens of millions of dollars for the purchase of equipment. They supposedly had contacts in China or elsewhere in the world. They made deals and got some money.

How could the government ensured that the equipment was really available before sending so much money to companies that were more or less known, or not even in the industry?

[Roger Ermuth]

With regard to the specifics of each contract, or the specifics of each arrangement, I would have to direct you to the specific department and/or PSPC. They would look at what was written into the terms and conditions, and what the appropriate mechanisms were for any follow-up response in terms of recovery of funds or legal action as would be allowed under the contract.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

When Public Services and Procurement Canada enters into contractual agreements with various suppliers, Treasury Board rules must be followed.

The situation was urgent, but the Treasury Board had to follow the rules for awarding contracts, especially when tens of millions of dollars, or even more than $200 million, are being distributed. That's not small change.

Was there strict control been between the Treasury Board and the departments, including Public Services and Procurement Canada? Were they told that they had to follow certain rules or was it so urgent that follow-up was less important? Today, we have to recover $80 million from a Montreal company and other companies. I'd like to know if the government is having trouble recovering certain amounts.

Public Services and Procurement Canada was entering into agreements, but the Treasury Board still had to follow up, since government spending is under its responsibility and that of the minister. Is that correct?

[Roger Ermuth]

Again, the specifics around individual contracts fall under the negotiations with PSPC. In terms of how it would have executed those contracts, as has been noted, it would have followed the procurement policies and whatnot. Acknowledging the fact, of course, that during the pandemic there was a global shortage of certain supplies, that would have necessitated changes and additional flexibilities that PSPC might have requested and/or exercised in purchasing that equipment.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

I can understand that some processes have been accelerated from what is normally done, but we're talking about advances of tens of millions of dollars.

Does the Minister of Public Services and Procurement Canada have the authority to authorize an advance, an advance payment, or does this require Treasury Board approval?

[Roger Ermuth]

Depending on the specifics of the contract, there would be times when it would have been delegated by the minister. There are other times when the minister would have potentially come in.

Again, it depends on the specifics around which specific contracts. I'm not as familiar with all of the work that PSPC has been doing.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Last week, we learned that Tango Communication Marketing was the subject of a lawsuit because it was unable to deliver the products.

Was the authorization to send $81 million to this company granted by the Treasury Board or Public Services and Procurement Canada?

[Roger Ermuth]

I'm not familiar enough with that specific contract.

The specifics of the actual execution of contracts will always go through PSPC. PSPC would probably be best placed to provide you further details.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Mr. Paul-Hus.

We'll now go to Mr. Weiler for six minutes.

[Patrick Weiler, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would also like to thank our departmental witnesses for joining our committee today.

To start off and show some respect to our witnesses, I want to give Mr. Yalkin the opportunity to finish answering the question he was asked earlier on government targets on diversity, before he was interrupted.

[Tolga Yalkin]

Thank you for the opportunity, Mr. Chair.

Just to clarify, the figures that are provided in the departmental plan are the workforce availability figures. Those are calculated to basically determine the workforce that is available when it comes to the four employment equity groups that are named in the Employment Equity Act. The workforce availability, known as WFA, is calculated based on authorities that are outlined in the Employment Equity Act. Clearly, those benchmarks are intended to be a floor, not a ceiling. Departments are definitely encouraged to achieve them and also exceed them, as the case may be.

In any given case, one group may exceed what the workforce availability currently is for that group. That by no means reflects the fact that the government is indicating we should be reducing that representation. We should, I think, celebrate it and continue the important work of trying to increase representation where there are any gaps and, obviously, continue to support the diversity of the public service in that vein.

The departmental plan is very clear. It doesn't say just the pinpoint target or the percentage. It says “at least” and then it provides a percentage, indicating that really that figure is a floor, not a ceiling.

Thank you.

[Patrick Weiler, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Thank you very much for that clarity.

What measures has TBS taken this year to be able to improve transparency in financial reporting?

[Glenn Purves]

Mr. Chair, it's a great question from the member.

We have been working very diligently over the past year to improve the transparency of financial reporting, starting through GC InfoBase. We've been working hard with respect to ensuring that we're building out what we produce for GC InfoBase. I would say that going forward that's really going to be our focus, to continue to add to that tool for the benefit of everyone involved. We'd always be willing to take input from members of this committee but also any other members of Parliament about how we can continue to improve that.

Part of that has to do with thinking through how we report on people, on results, on funding that's spent, but also we've added a few panes pertaining to COVID. Particularly, the authorities that have been secured through Parliament, by measure, are mapped back to the same items that were in the economic response plan outlined in the fall 2020 statement.

We've just added onto GC InfoBase as well the COVID expenditures, the estimated expenditures that we've been collecting on a monthly basis from the departments, and including information on open data, the latest report of which we submitted to the committee yesterday.

Beyond that, within the estimates themselves, I think there have been a lot of questions about the reconciliation between what's included in estimates and what's not included in estimates. Something such as the wage subsidy, which Mr. McCauley actually touched on earlier, is a tax expenditure. That along with EI and so forth are things that we do not track through estimates, because they're outside the appropriations of departments. It's through tax expenditure reporting that that has been done and has enabling legislation linked to it as well.

Through the estimates, not just reconciling the latest estimates to the budget but if there's a fall economic statement that comes out with a projection, or any policy statement from the government with a projection, ensuring what the estimates are to date, any supplementary estimates, compared to what that latest policy document shows is something that we think is going to be very valuable and we'll continue to do that for the benefit of committees.

On the COVID side, we've tagged the items that are COVID related. If there are things we're not providing that would be useful for committee members, we're always open and interested in securing that. Thank you.

[Patrick Weiler, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Along those same lines, as part of budget 2021, there has been a commitment made to ensure that Crown corporations with less than $1 billion in assets are going to be expected to start reporting on climate-related financial risks. I'm curious as to what role, if any, TBS has with respect to this matter.

[Glenn Purves]

Well, on—

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Mr. Purves, I apologize. We're at the end of the time. I don't mean to interrupt, but I do need to be respectful of that time, and not only the member's but all members' time commitments.

If you can provide us an answer in writing, it would be appreciated.

[Glenn Purves]

We're happy to.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you.

We will now move to Ms. Vignola for six minutes.