Government Operations Committee on June 9th, 2021

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

My buzzer just went off, giving you about 10 seconds. If you have a really quick question—

[Patrick Weiler, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

I'll just thank the witnesses again.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

I gave Mr. Green a little extra time, so I figured I could give you a couple of extra seconds too.

We now go to the final round. We will start with Mr. Paul-Hus for five minutes.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

This is a very interesting meeting and we are learning a lot of things.

As the 2018 report said, one of the Conservatives' recommendations was to reduce red tape. You talked a lot about the computer problem and the fact that the applications were too complex. For some members of First Nations communities, computers are not as easy to understand. There is also a lot of red tape in all government processes. In fact, that is what the Conservatives tried to do when they were in government.

You said that the processes were complicated. Even non-indigenous businesses complain about problems accessing the processes. Would there be a way to simplify the way things are done?

What quick solution could the government adopt to resolve the issue right away? What stage of the process could be completely changed to facilitate everything?

I invite Mr. Sinclair to answer.

[Donald (Rocky) Sinclair]

I certainly wish there was a simple answer, but just based on the discussion today, it's complicated. I don't have enough familiarity with procurement to be able to give you a firm answer in what that might be.

Lots of suggestions were made in testimony thus far. I think it's going to require collective change in a lot of different areas. I don't think there's a quick fix to it. There are a lot of things outside of simply changing the way the program operates. There are biases and stereotyping. All kinds of things factor into the inability of this program to be effective at this point.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

That is a point that often comes up these days. There is often talk about systemic racism in the police and more or less everywhere. I am not saying that it doesn't exist. There is certainly a problem somewhere, if indigenous businesses are never accepted or selected and they don't know why.

I would hope that at the end of this meeting, you could say that it was worth it to take two or three hours of your time to appear here today. I hope that this meeting of our committee will benefit everyone and we will be able to make progress. As I said in my previous series of questions, often, there is often confrontation, and no progress is ever made.

The processes are one thing, yes, but what other solutions would there be? Mr. Sinclair has said that after two hours in the meeting, the conclusion was that everything was complex and we always come back to the basic problem, this kind of lack of trust between businesses in indigenous communities and the Government of Canada. Everyone talked about this at the outset. Certainly, I do not necessarily have the solution for you. I would hope that we have a magic solution to propose to you today.

That said, as I was saying, we want Canada to be more autonomous in terms of production and to depend less on countries like China, for example, which has been a serious problem in recent months.

Mr. Ducharme or Ms. Suitor, I would like to give you one last opportunity to make constructive comments.

Mr. Ducharme, I see you nodding your head.

[Philip Ducharme]

Thank you, Mr. Paul-Hus.

I want to go back to where we talked about ensuring that indigenous procurement targets are in the departmental plans and every executive's professional management plan. I think if those are in place, then the ones who are doing the procurement will come forward with ideas as well, because then they have to do it. They're going to make the changes as well, because on these RFPs there will have to be something that's done for them, instead of having those RFPs set up so it's like a weeding-out system. I think that's something that can be done without legislation, and it would really help to increase the opportunities for our indigenous businesses.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Mr. Ducharme.

Thank you, Mr. Paul-Hus.

We will now go to Mr. MacKinnon for five minutes.

[Steven MacKinnon, Liberal, Gatineau, QC]

Thank you very much. It's a great honour for me to serve at this point in time in this government, which is committed to acting to get to 5% indigenous procurement.

It's a tortuous road, admittedly. As I think anyone encountering federal government procurement discovers, it is very detailed and very heavy at some times, and I fully understand how anyone new to this system or anyone who sometimes fears the level of detail would recoil. That's why I want to finish this round of questioning on a perhaps more hopeful note. I do note—and I want to return to this scene, because I think it's so important—this issue of trust that we explored.

As things currently stand, unless you're in a treaty organization, PSAB requires you to register. I think the government has shown all kinds of goodwill in supporting indigenous organizations in the establishment of an organization run by indigenous peoples that would have that level of trust, that would certify businesses as indigenous-owned and would provide that sort of one-stop shop for procurement.

I note that we have not heard from a couple of witnesses on this next point. I want to get your views on the importance of having indigenous leadership so that businesses can access the procurement system, and the best way of going about that. Who would like to go first?

Mr. Ducharme, would you comment?

[Philip Ducharme]

Okay, sir. I thought you were maybe directing it to someone else, because I feel like I've been talking a lot.

On the trust issue, it does have to come from indigenous people for this to be happening. So many times when we're brought into the fold, we're told what's good for us.

As I said earlier, we've been working at CCAB on this for a number of years. It's a really big project, so it is great when Shannin talks about the groups that are coming together. I think that collectively we all have very many expertise areas that we can bring together. This does encompass a lot of different things. We haven't even looked at increasing employment with the procurement opportunities for indigenous businesses.

The trust does have to be there, and it has to be indigenous-led. As indigenous people, we've been told time after time what's good for us and what needs to be done. I think if the government is really committed to this, they will engage with us and have an open dialogue to make sure that this is going to happen and that we are leading the way.

[Steven MacKinnon, Liberal, Gatineau, QC]

Perhaps let me ask this: Are you not sensing that will on the part of the government?

[Philip Ducharme]

I think that in the past, the government has been pretty good at doling out a little bits of money here and there. We've always been so hungry because we've struggled so much in the past. Again, these are just strictly my feelings. It's not on behalf of CCAB.

I think quite often, for the government, that has been a way of sort of controlling, by saying they'll give us a little bit of money. Someone speaks a lot and they give us a little bit of money.

I think it has to be looked at collectively. I do believe that our indigenous groups are working together, as Shannin has mentioned as well. These indigenous-led organizations are coming together because we realize that we need to do it for ourselves. We can't rely on anyone but ourselves to get it done.

[Steven MacKinnon, Liberal, Gatineau, QC]

Does anyone else want to comment on that?

[Shannin Metatawabin]

I can jump in here.

I think it's really important that it be indigenous-led. I think that's a given. I think that's the only way that we're going to go. Government keeps on talking about devolving services to indigenous people, without the resources. We all have to work together on proper planning.

I think that there's a service function to an indigenous organization. If we have mandatory targets, then those line managers and those ministers are going to make sure that their teams are putting into place the services, the processes and the supports necessary to meet those targets. They'll follow after you have the mandatory target. It also has to be transparent. Everybody has to know how those mandatory targets are being hit.

I like how Philip Ducharme said that it should be in their plans that they have to present. I think it needs to be public. If we made it public that everybody is trying to achieve a target, it's maybe not going to be right away, but it will eventually, gradually increase. As more supports are in place.... We just launched a $150-million growth fund, I hope you know. It's the first time ever that we're going to have access to capital, with BDC, FCC and EDC all contributing.

[The Clerk]

I'm sorry, Mr. Chair. My understanding is that the interpretation had stopped.

If you could ask Mr. Metatawabin to slow down and speak a little more clearly, it may be possible. The interpreters were unable to follow him.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Mr. Clerk.

Mr. Metatawabin, I don't know whether you heard that. If you would be able to maybe slow your speech a little bit such that they can follow you, the interpretation will be concise and thorough and we'll make sure that we get it all done appropriately.

[Shannin Metatawabin]

I'm very sorry. I'm very passionate when I get into this.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

No worries. It's not a problem. I get that. We appreciate that and we are thankful for you doing that.

I'll let you finish, if you would, please.

[Shannin Metatawabin]

I'll just say that if we provide mandatory targets and, rather than just a mandate letter to two departments, if everybody got a mandate letter that was going to be posted publicly and everybody had to hit those targets or there would be consequences, then every department would be putting in the processes to make sure they hit those targets. Everybody would work together.

For the first time ever, all of our indigenous institutions are collaborating and working together. There's the need, so we're doing it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you for that.

Mr. Sinclair, I see you. You're always coming out at just that time when I have to change.

I'll give you 15 seconds to quickly answer that.

[Donald (Rocky) Sinclair]

I'll just make one quick comment. It's just a cautionary observation.

The devolution of responsibility in the delivery of these kinds of programs to the indigenous community doesn't always solve the problem. It takes much more effort beyond just having those organizations deliver. It does require some metrics and measurements that need to be instilled or to hold the governments responsible. It's not just simply devolving responsibility to an indigenous-led agency. It will take more than that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Mr. Sinclair. I appreciate that.

Thank you, Mr. MacKinnon, for your questions. We have come to the end of your five minutes.

We will now go to Ms. Vignola for two and a half minutes.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you very much.

I have been listening to you for a while, and when you talk about the need to be informed, I can't help but think about the applications where you can choose what notifications to get based on your areas of interest. Every day, you get a notification that tells you what's new. I think I can imagine—this is just an idea I am sharing with you, I don't want to impose anything on someone—a business that says it works in construction, its specialty is masonry, for example, and it wants to be informed when there are projects of that type. It would then receive notifications on that subject. That would be marvellous.

However, it is not up to me to make that decision. I think it is really up to you to say how the First Nations' resources and strengths can be better utilized. That is essential, to my mind.

That said, how many times has the indigenous business COVID‑19 taskforce met since March 2020?

[Shannin Metatawabin]

I guess I can answer that.

The task force actually ran in 2020, and it ran for—

[The Clerk]

I beg your pardon, Mr. Chair. I apologize for intervening.

Mr. Metatawabin, I apologize as well.

I've been informed by our technicians that part of the issue with your sound, sir, is that you may not have your headset selected. I do apologize for intervening at this late time, but it's one of the issues the interpreters are having. If you could check in the bottom left-hand corner of your screen where the microphone is, there's a small arrow next to it. By clicking there, you may be able to select the microphone. Alternatively, if you could—