Government Operations Committee on Nov. 4th, 2020

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Respectfully, I need to hear this from the Treasury Board president, madam.

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Because we have full confidence in our ability to collaborate with representatives of the public servants and in our most respectful relationship with the representatives of public servants, the bargaining agent. We also have a very respectful relationship with the PBO because we also believe very strongly in the importance of sharing the information that is useful—

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

That's not what's in the report, sir. The report says that TBS refused to disclose information or data regarding employee compensation. This is a budgetary officer of the House of Commons responsible for reporting back to us in a fair way. This is not cooperation. This language, where you refused to disclose information or data, is damning, sir. I'd like for you to answer why you wouldn't cooperate with them.

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

I have three things on that First, we do have a high degree of esteem for the work of the PBO. Second, we always need to provide the information that is appropriate for the PBO to do its work. Third, the secretariat and all government organizations have the responsibility to provide accurate information that is of the level the PBO is expecting. Therefore, not all information can be provided in any particular format. We need to provide that in the format that is respectful of both our relationship with bargaining agents and our relationship with the PBO.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Mr. Green, you have 30 seconds.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Surely bargaining agents, particularly those representing the public sector, would want to ensure that the public just doesn't have to take your word for it, that this information would be shared with an officer of the court.

I think we will leave that at this point, and I look forward to the next round. I thank you.

I do apologize to Ms. Hassan. It was a very particular question, and I thought it was only responsible for the president to answer it himself.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Mr. Green.

That concludes the first round. Now we're entering the second round. We are going to five minutes per questioner for the first part and then two and a half minutes for the Bloc and the NDP.

We will start with Mr. McCauley.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I have a quick question. It may have been the translation, but when my colleague, Ms. Vignola, was asking about COVID spending, you seemed to state that all of the COVID spending was on the Government of Canada's website, which is the opposite of what Parliamentary Budget Officer stated, whom you say you highly esteem.

Who's right, and who's wrong, or is it just lost in translation?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Thank you for the opportunity to go beyond the translation. I will say that directly in English now.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Time is short, Minister. Let's just get to the answers, please. I don't mean to be rude.

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

You're asking a very good question. I will try to provide my best answer possible.

There are at least three different ways that you can—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Minister, please: You stated that all the COVID spending was on the Government of Canada's website. The PBO says otherwise.

Would you provide us with the URL, please, then, if it's all on the website, or would you like to retract that earlier statement if you are incorrect?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

No. What I tried to say—and I certainly would like to be as precise as I can and should be—is that all of the financial information related to the budgetary estimates process in which you are, obviously, very involved is available on GC InfoBase with a lot more detail than we can perhaps talk about at the meeting.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Okay. So, not that then.

Let me get back to Mr. Paul-Hus' earlier question.

In the Official Languages Act, there is something that is triggered when they are asking for money. A couple of items will trigger a need for a completed official languages checklist and official languages impact analysis. WE would have done this.

The analysis should have included a summary of the official languages impacts and covered the steps taken to assure Treasury Board ministers that the program complied with the Official Languages Act.

It's very clear that the WE program did not comply with the Official Languages Act. It would have triggered an analysis that would have gone to you for approval.

Did you see this analysis, and if you did, why would you have signed off on it to allow the money for WE when, very clearly, it violated the Official Languages Act and would not have passed the small test for the Treasury Board?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. McCauley, for your interest in official languages. I appreciate that.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

No. I'm interested in Treasury Board guidelines. Please stay on the subject. Did you see the analysis? Did you sign off on it? Did you agree to it? Please answer that.

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

On that particular aspect, there are two different things. First, there is the very important responsibility of Treasury Board to provide guidelines to all departments. Second, there is the responsibility of individual departments.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Very clearly.... Did you see the analysis, Minister? Did you agree with it and sign off on it? These are simple questions. This was $910 million. Did you see the analysis? Did you sign off on it?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

A simple answer.... There is the important responsibility of Treasury Board to provide official languages guidelines, and you understand that really well. I'm grateful for that ability and interest. Second, there is the responsibility of—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Did you see the impact analysis, Minister? Did you sign off on it?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Then the second is the responsibility of individual departments to provide—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Minister, did you see the impact analysis that is required, and did you sign off on it? It's a simple question. It's required by you under Treasury Board guidelines. Did you do your job? Did you see the impact analysis that would have been done, and did you sign off on it?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Being a very experienced member of Parliament, Mr. McCauley, you will know the distinction between the guidelines provided by the Treasury Board and the individual responsibility of ministers and departments to apply and to demonstrate that they did indeed apply—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Before it was approved, it would have triggered the impact analysis. To get that $910 million, it would have triggered it. Under sections 2 and 6, it would have been required, and it would have gone to Treasury Board.

I'm going to assume that the answer is you don't know, and I'm fine with that. I would like you to get back to the committee, though, if the impact analysis was done, as was required. Did you sign off on it? If you did not, who from Treasury Board would have signed off on it?

I'd like to move on, please.

According to the government website, in the first quarter, pre-COVID—the first quarter of the year—the economy was doing well, and the average wage settlement for unionized employees across the country for all sectors was 1.6%. During COVID, when millions of Canadians were losing their jobs, you settled and gave a 2.6% increase to public servants, an increase 62% above what the average Canadian would have received during the good times.

Why would you give such a generous increase, when the country was in such a raging economic downfall and running massive deficits? Why would you give such an increase far above what the private sector was giving to unionized employees pre-COVID meltdown?

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Minister, give a very quick answer, please.