Government Operations Committee on Nov. 4th, 2020

[Glenn Purves]

I don't have the answer to what's going to happen with those assets. I think, if we step back and look at our experience here at Treasury Board, there's been a real effort to use existing equipment here and to bring that back. I would imagine it would be brought back into use.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Great, thanks.

I want to get back to the question by my colleague Mr. Paul-Hus, who was asking about purchasing. There are purchasing guidelines under the contracting policy from TBS. It lays out the policies for procurement and rules to follow. When we were asking about the Government of Canada buying PPE produced with forced labour, we heard from your colleagues at PSPC. They said that we didn't have to worry because people in Communist China...and the government self-attests that they're not going to do that. That simple self-attestation by companies abroad violates the Treasury Board guidelines for contract policy.

What is your role to ensure that PSPC and other departments are following your Treasury Board guidelines for this? Again, PSPC is in clear violation of your guidelines for foreign purchases.

[Glenn Purves]

We have been working very actively with departments with our polices and our guidelines to ensure that the COVID response is being addressed—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

But this is not just—

[Glenn Purves]

—as expeditiously as possible. I'm not an expert with respect to my role as it pertains to contracting guidelines....

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

These are Treasury Board guidelines. Who within TBS, then, would advise PSPC that they're violating TBS guidelines and Government of Canada guidelines on purchasing?

[Glenn Purves]

We have teams that have particular oversight with respect to procurement and transfer payment guidelines and policies that work through these matters. Again, guidelines effectively are set out, and departments have a lot of responsibility to ensure that they are meeting these guidelines as they're written.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I'll read right from the TBS contracting policy—

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Mr. McCauley, you have 10 seconds.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Oh.

Apparently you are to work and address management issues on those guidelines, so it's not just a matter, as Minister Duclos said, of sloughing off that to another department. TBS is responsible, according to your own guidelines.

We can follow up in the next round.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you.

We'll go to Mr. Jowhari for five minutes.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd also like to start by acknowledging the great work that our officials and civil servants have been doing over the last nine months in making sure that the government wheels work.

I have two questions, one of them on the main estimates.

It is my understanding the Department of Indigenous Services is requesting about $12.7 billion in the 2021 main estimates, which is second only to National Defence. This is an increase of roughly about $550 million from the 2019-20 main estimates. They are also asking for about $330 million in supplementary estimates. Can anyone from the department explain what kinds of initiatives are being funded through these estimates, and why has the funding increased this year?

Thank you.

[Glenn Purves]

Yes, certainly. I'm very happy to answer that question.

The Department of Indigenous Services used to be amalgamated with the Department of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs, what we call CIRNA.

In the separation and the creation of the new department, the department took on a host of measures, including working on non-insured health benefits for first nations and Inuit, which used to be within the purview of Health Canada. Every year a transfer goes from Health Canada to be able to deal with that, but there's also an augmentation in that, as well.

When you look at the supplementary estimates (B), we're going from about $13.5 billion to $14.5 billion, an increase of about $1 billion on the voted side, of which you have about $300 million dealing directly with the COVID response, meaning funding to support indigenous businesses. There are indigenous businesses that are finding short-term dislocations in their funding and their support. Effectively, there is funding that's been able to help them with their needs.

A host of different issues are listed on the page proof in the supplementary estimates (B) that go into all of those measures, but the particular ones, again, are for non-insured health benefits. About $256 million there is going to provide prescription drugs, dental care, vision care, medical transportation and medical health counselling for first nations and Inuit needing this access.

There's the first nations child and family services program as well as Jordan's principle, an initiative under the oversight of the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal. In particular, these two measures account for about $240 million for child and family services, as well as an additional $74 million for Jordan's principle, beyond the amounts for Jordan's principle that have been outlined already as part of supplementary estimates (A) and included in part of the main estimates.

Altogether, it's going towards a whole host of measures ensuring that first nations and Inuit are looked after with respect to a whole host of health, social and education issues.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Purves.

I have about a minute. I'd like to ask one final question.

In the supplementary estimates (B), about $19 million is provided for Phoenix stabilization. This is an area that I've been following since 2015. Can you give us an idea of what that money is being used for? Give us a quick update of where we are and whether any employees have not been compensated.

[Glenn Purves]

Sure.

Karen Cahill would be best positioned to answer that question.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you.

[Karen Cahill]

The $19 million that you see in our supplementary estimates (B) is for the office of the chief information officer to help provide new processes, stabilize the data and exercise a business owner role with respect to Phoenix stabilization, and also to help bridge to the next generation HR and pay system that we'll be piloting.

Where is this work at? We are pursuing the work very hard to ensure that when it comes time to move the department into the NexGen system, we will be able to do so.

This fall NextGen has undertaken a pilot with Heritage Canada and will potentially onboard more departments. As you know, SAP is the vendor that has been selected to do so.

With respect to the employees not receiving pay, where are we at? I would refer that question to PSPC. This work is under their purview.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Ms. Cahill, for your answer.

We're now going to two-and-a-half minute rounds.

Ms. Vignola.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thanks very much.

I'll continue talking about the Phoenix pay system.

In the initial months of the pandemic, we had an interesting update on the number of actions that had been taken. I understand that Public Services and Procurement Canada is responsible for that, not you. Whatever the case may be, as Mr. Jowhari mentioned, we've set aside $19 million to stabilize the system.

I'll begin with this question: is that enough?

[Karen Cahill]

My short answer is no because that funding covers only one year. Since the work will have to continue over the next few years, we will probably request additional funding.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Is there a timeline for replacing the Phoenix pay system? You've found a company and what seems to be a suitable system, but do you have a timeline for replacing the system? When will you be able to say it's finished, it's done, it's been replaced?

[Karen Cahill]

Unfortunately I can't give you any details on the timeline.

On April 1 of this year, responsibility for the new next-generation pay system was transferred to Shared Services Canada, which is now the department implementing pilot projects and managing the timeline.

That will be a good question to put to the Shared Services Canada representatives when they come and testify before this committee, Mrs. Vignola.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I have a final question.

I've been hearing about the new-generation pay system for some time now, in fact since I began sitting in the House last year. What makes this new-generation system so different? The fact is that pay is still pay. What does this new-generation system have that's so new and that makes it so fantastic and marvellous?

[Karen Cahill]

I can't give you any details. Once again, that would be a question to ask my colleagues at Shared Services Canada. All I can say is that's the name they chose to give the new pay system.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you very much.

That will be all for me.