Government Operations Committee on Nov. 4th, 2020

[The Chair (Mr. Robert Kitchen (Souris—Moose Mountain, CPC)), Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, everybody, for being here today. I would like to call this meeting to order. Welcome to meeting number five of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates.

The committee is meeting today from 7:09 to 9:09 to hear from the President of the Treasury Board and officials on the main estimates 2020-21. I would like to thank the president and the officials, who have agreed to stay longer so we can get this in. I appreciate that.

Pursuant to the motion adopted by the House on Wednesday, September 23, the committee may continue to sit in a hybrid format. This means that members can participate either in person in the committee room or by video conference via Zoom.

To ensure an orderly meeting, I would like to outline a few rules to follow. Interpretation in this video conference will work very much as it does in a regular committee meeting. You have the choice, at the bottom of your screen, of either floor, English or French. Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. When you are ready to speak, you can click on the microphone icon to activate your mike. When you are not speaking, we ask that you keep your mike muted. To raise a point of order during the meeting, committee members should ensure that their microphone is unmuted and say “point of order” to get the chair’s attention.

In order to ensure social distancing in the committee room, if you need to speak privately with the clerk or the analysts during the meeting, please email him through the committee email address.

Yesterday, the clerk sent out the speaking notes for the President of the Treasury Board. I will now invite the President of the Treasury Board to make his opening statement and mind briefly introduce those who are with him as well. I'd appreciate that.

Mr. Minister.

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, President of the Treasury Board]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I would like to begin by thanking the committee members for having invited me to discuss the 2020-2021 main estimates, which were initially tabled last February.

I will also comment very briefly on the supplementary estimates (B), which were tabled recently.

As you invited me to do, I am going to introduce to members of the committee the staff who will be here to assist me today. With me are Glenn Purves, assistant secretary, expenditure management sector; Karen Cahill, assistant secretary and chief financial officer; and Sandra Hassan, assistant deputy minister, employment conditions and labour relations.

To begin I would like to bring your attention to the main estimates of 2020-21. These main estimates provide a detailed view of responsible government spending to support the creation of opportunities for Canadians from coast to coast to coast and, therefore, reinforce Canada’s status as a responsible citizen of the global community. Following the recent prorogation and the recent return of Parliament, these same main estimates were re-tabled on September 30 to allow their continued study.

They present a total of $125.1 billion of budgetary voted expenditures, and $87.2 million in non-budgetary voted expenditures.

These main estimates also include information on $179.5 billion of statutory budgetary spending and $3 billion of statutory non-budgetary spending.

As the members of the committee continue to review the main estimates and supporting documentation, it will become clear to everyone that the government’s spending plan is closely aligned with the priorities expressed by Canadians in the pandemic.

It also includes the understanding that Canada must continue to work towards reconciliation with indigenous peoples. The expenditure plan, therefore, describes significant amounts for indigenous health and social services, for greater access to early learning opportunities, and for new investments to advance the proven benefits of indigenous self-determination in education.

Mr. Chair, Canadians understand that we have an obligation to be a force for good here in Canada but also in the world. The spending plans in the main estimates, therefore, support measures to advance human rights, invest in our armed forces and diversify Canada’s trade and investment opportunities.

We know that the environment and the economy go hand in hand, and that is why the expenditure plan includes major investments for measures that favour both solid growth and climate change mitigation.

As for my own department, the Treasury Board Secretariat, expenditures identified include $2.2 billion for us to discharge our obligations with respect to public service insurance plans, as well as a $282,000 contribution to the Open Government Partnership.

The main estimates also include central funds, which are essential to help the government deal with urgent matters, and to speed up the implementation of programs and services responsibly.

I will now speak very briefly about the 2020-2021 supplementary estimates (B)

These supplementary estimates provide information about expenditures that were incomplete when the main estimates were being prepared, but that have since been clarified to factor in changes made to a number of programs and services.

The 2020-2021 supplementary estimates (B) continue to report expenditures authorized for COVID-19 under the Emergency Measures Act, which ensures transparency and accountability in the delivery of programs and services to Canadians.

These estimates present a total of $79.2 billion in budgetary spending, including $20.9 billion to be voted on by Parliament and $58.3 billion in forecasted statutory expenditures. Of these amounts, roughly 74% of the voted requirements and 96% of the additional statutory forecasts are for the government's emergency and economic responses to COVID-19.

The voted spending in these estimates for emergency responses to COVID-19 includes $5.4 billion for medical research and vaccine development and $2.2 billion for purchases of personal protective equipment, medical equipment and supplies.

There are also economic responses to the pandemic. These include $2.4 billion in support for small and medium-sized businesses, salary top-ups for essential workers, and funding for provinces and territories to safely restart their economies and bring students back to school.

In addition, my department, the Treasury Board Secretariat, will receive $585 million for public service insurance plans and programs.

In conclusion, Mr. Chair, our government has the responsibility to ensure that Canadians have the support they need during the COVID-19 pandemic and to promote economic recovery and prosperity going forward. We do this by investing in critical health care and supporting the safe restart of our economy. Our spending plans will ensure that Canada and Canadians thrive and succeed.

The senior officials and I would like to thank you once again for your invitation to the committee. We will be more than happy to answer any questions you may have.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Minister Duclos. We appreciate that.

Now we'll go to our first round, which is for six minutes. The first up will be Mr. Paul-Hus for the Conservatives.

Mr. Paul-Hus.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Mr. Chair, I have a point of order.

I don't want to intervene, but I'm hearing that the staff are having some issues calling in, so if somebody could look at that, it would be great.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Certainly. If everyone could just hold on for a second, we'll straighten this out.

We believe it's been fixed now, so we will try continuing. If there's still an issue, we will address it, Mr. Drouin.

Mr. Paul-Hus.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair

Thank you, Minister, for being with us this evening.

I would like to begin by informing you and your team that we are here to discuss the main estimates. You will be returning in a few weeks to speak to us about the supplementary estimates (B).

First of all, I would like to know if you have any idea of when the government will be tabling the budget.

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Thank you for your question, Mr. Paul-Hus.

I'm delighted to be here with you today, and look forward to hearing from you about coming again to speak at greater length about the supplementary estimates (B). These estimates are integrated, however, and it is important for the members of your committee to understand how the expenditures are complementary and integrated into both the main and supplementary estimates.

As for the coming economic statement, my colleague the Minister of Finance is working very hard on it, as you might well suspect, and I know that she is eager to announce the exact date as soon as possible.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you, Minister.

I will now move on to my next question.

I have read the Treasury Board's Contracting Policy. Can you explain why your former colleague Frank Baylis was awarded a contract not long after leaving his job?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Once again, I'm pleased to be able to answer this question promptly knowing that Ms. Anand, the Minister of Public Services and Procurement, has already announced that she will be able to visit you soon. I know that she is keen to do so. That will give you an opportunity to put the question to her.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

I am aware that contracting is Ms. Anand's responsibility. However, the Treasury Board prepares the guidelines.

For instance, can you tell me whether or not your policy allows a shell company like FTI Professional Grade to be awarded a $237 million contract for ventilators made by Mr. Baylis's company?

Does the policy not state that it is important to “ensure that the fees paid do not exceed the appropriate market rate for the service provided”? How can the failure to comply with Treasury Board directives be explained?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

That's an excellent question.

As you mentioned, the Treasury Board is responsible for providing directives to all Canadian government departments, in particular, as you noted, in matters of procurement. The ministers concerned are there to apply these directives in accordance with their responsibilities and their assigned areas of authority. Ms. Anand is the person who can provide you with the details of this particular case.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Okay.

Mr. Minister, I would like to return to my first question. You spoke about the economic statement, but what I am speaking about is the budget. We still don't have a budget.

We are, of course, aware that the pandemic arrived at the same time, but what has been happening since then? Are you expecting to table the budget?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Those are excellent questions.

Naturally, we would prefer not to be experiencing this COVID-19 crisis. If we had a magic wand that could get us out of it, we would wave it immediately. But we have to take the current context into account because it is making things very difficult for Canadians in terms of health and the economy. The Minister of Finance, Ms. Freeland, will be happy to give you further details about any future delays and key moments.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you.

The auditor general is overwhelmed right now because of all the investigations she has to conduct into instances of public fund mismanagement. Her audits are currently compromised because she lacks the funds to do her work.

Will the transfer of funds be approved soon?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

We have been having excellent discussions with the auditor general. You yourself heard her say that she was very pleased with the discussions, and with the Canadian government's attitude and receptiveness. She is, of course, very happy about our 2018 funding, which enabled her to hire 38 more full-time people. She interacts highly effectively with the Minister of Finance because it is very important for discussions to be based on accurate information, as you are well aware, and as you manage to do so well yourself.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

At the Treasury Board, there are also guidelines in its Guidance for Drafters of Treasury Board Submissions, which provides information for everyone on matters pertaining to financial policy and contracting.

I have a question about the WE organization. There is a problem in terms of French. When the contract was awarded, there was nothing in it about French, or even Quebec. And yet the Treasury Board directives clearly state that “In all circumstances, you must conduct an Official Languages Impact Analysis.”

Was such a study conducted for the WE organization?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

I'm glad you asked that question, Mr. Paul-Hus. You and I are both Quebeckers and francophones, and we firmly believe in the importance of ensuring that the public service can work in French, wherever employees wish to do so, and that services in French are offered to Canadians wherever they may live in Canada, and certainly in Quebec. It's not just a directive, but a fundamentally important policy that—

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Minister, my question was whether such a study had been conducted? If so, could we have the document?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

The directives apply to all policies and programs in all departments and, accordingly—

Can you still hear me?

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

I'm sorry, it's my mike that's doing that.

I just want to let Mr. Paul-Hus know that he has 30 seconds.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Okay.

Mr. Minister, was a study of the impact on official languages conducted for the WE organization? If so, could you provide the document to us?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

As I was saying, you and I fully understand that this is an extremely important matter. It's about whether the Canadian government is capable of offering services in French to francophones across Canada. There is a Treasury Board policy and requirement that applies to all programs and services in all departments. The same policy applies everywhere, and it is up to each minister to ensure that the policy is followed.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

We agree then that it is ultimately your responsibility as the Treasury Board president. If the document is available, we would like to see it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Mr. Paul-Hus.

We will now go to Mr. MacKinnon, for the Liberals.

[Steven MacKinnon, Liberal, Gatineau, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Good evening to my committee colleagues.

I would like to welcome the minister as well as Ms. Cahill, Ms. Hassan and Mr. Purves.

I am delighted to see you all again.

I would like to begin, as the member of Parliament for Gatineau, by saying how grateful I am to the public servants who work day and night, as eloquently evidenced by the presence of those who are here this evening, often under extremely difficult conditions, to get us through this pandemic. Mr. Duclos, could you please, on behalf of us all, I believe, express the gratitude of each and every elected member to all public service employees.

That, precisely, is what I want to talk about. You perform a key role as the president of the Treasury Board because the Treasury Board Secretariat is the employer of the entire public service.

Needless to say, as a Quebec member for Gatineau, I was troubled by recent comments from the official languages commissioner, Mr. Théberge, according to whom official language and language of work provisions are not being followed in the workplace, virtually or otherwise, during the pandemic.

Mr. Duclos, what action have you taken, or are you going to take, in response to Mr. Théberge's comments, or since the start of the pandemic, to ensure that official language and language of work provisions are followed during the pandemic?