Government Operations Committee on Nov. 4th, 2020

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Ms. Vignola, you have the floor.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

So I understand the pandemic put a stop to work on the report.

Will a return to some degree of normalcy aid in preparing it, or has it been completely set aside until you can determine whether you can resume work on it?

[Glenn Purves]

I think for the time being the focus has been on the response to the pandemic. We would effectively be updating this departmental plan in this fiscal year through the departmental results report and would proceed on that basis.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I see. Thank you.

According to page 32 of the 2020–21 departmental plan, TBS will introduce “technology that will help TBS employees manage their information and work together.” That must have been done on a somewhat expedited basis. It refers to the Teams collaboration tool, SharePoint, Zoom and other similar sharing tools.

What is the cost of this initiative? Have contracts been signed to provide services here, such as installation and training? If so, what firms are involved?

[Karen Cahill]

Thank you for your question.

Yes, we've introduced new technology that lets all Treasury Board Secretariat employees work remotely and collaborate with colleagues both within the department and in other departments.

As for the cost of our Microsoft 365 implementation project, I should note that it's divided into two components. First, Shared Services Canada is responsible for providing licences to all departments. I can't tell you the cost of that. However, I can tell you about the costs the secretariat has borne.

Mr. Chair, should I continue?

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Ms. Vignola, do you want to ask another question?

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

My sound was interrupted for a moment.

You said that Shared Services Canada was responsible for one component, but I unfortunately didn't hear what you said about the other component, for which your organization is responsible.

[Karen Cahill]

Yes, I stopped at that point because I saw that you were having problems.

The part our organization is responsible for represents $700,000. That's mainly employee salaries and work we've done internally.

As to whether any contracts have been signed, perhaps you should put that question to Shared Services Canada because it's the department responsible for buying the licences.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I see. Thank you.

Going back to the insurance issue, we discussed that earlier, but it's still a bit of a mystery to me.

There are 257,000 employees, and I imagine the vast majority of them are covered by insurance plans. I mean, if the situation is similar to the one I experienced in a previous life, some part-time employees may not be covered. We know how much insurance plans generally cost. I'm talking about the public service health care plan here. In instances where the employer contributes to a plan, we know how much contributions increase from year to year.

I'd like to know why the total cost of the insurance plan is included in the main estimates. In other words, why do we see a portion of the costs in the main estimates and the rest in supplementary estimates (A), (B) or (C)? That's what I'd like to understand.

I'd also like to know whether those costs increase given the general aging of the population. That phenomenon must affect the public service in the same way it affects the rest of the population.

[Karen Cahill]

I'll answer that question.

We can definitely see a $511-million cut to our appropriations in the main estimates. That doesn't mean we don't attach any importance to public service insurance plans. The fact is there is a funding plan for those plans. We're working with the Office of the Chief Actuary and the Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions to estimate the costs of social benefit programs and insurance plans. We request increases and cuts to appropriations every year.

You probably heard the Treasury Board president mention a figure of $585 million under Treasury Board Secretariat vote 20b in the supplementary estimates (B) for the 2020-21 year. That reflects an increase in the social benefits program and insurance plans that we offer our employees.

Mrs. Vignola, I understand why you were wondering why this isn't automatically in the estimates. That can actually be attributed to the way this vote is established. Don't worry, however, people are always covered and we always pay the employer's share.

I don't know whether Mr. Purves or Ms. Hassan wants to add to my answer.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you very much, Ms. Cahill.

We have a little bit of extra time to allow for the disturbance in the sound, so we'll go to Mr. Green for six minutes.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

According to page 4 of the 2020-21 departmental plan, the Treasury Board Secretariat will work with departments to increase diversity at executive levels of the federal public service, including increasing the number of women in senior decision-making positions. It is generally understood that the federal government has met these targets to have women occupy half of senior decision-making positions.

How does the Treasury Board define diversity?

Ms. Hassan.

[Glenn Purves]

Sandra, are you available for that question?

[Sandra Hassan]

Yes, I was putting my microphone on “unmute” and on the English channel.

In the work that's being done by OCHRO at Treasury Board, the definition of diversity is quite broad. There are, of course, the four employment groups. You mentioned one, which is women, but we also have visible minorities, aboriginal peoples and the disabled. We look and talk more about diversity and inclusion nowadays. We include in the work that we're doing not only the four legislated employment equity groups, but also—

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Ms. Hassan, would it be fair to say that the gender-based analysis plus has largely benefited white women in particular in this regard, or have you done work to disaggregate the data to demonstrate your efforts towards Black communities, persons of colour, disabled communities and others?

[Sandra Hassan]

You're absolutely right, Mr. Green. What you call “white women” is not the only group the federal government is looking at—

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Can I ask a specific question? I don't want you to dismiss that. In your analysis of the women who are taking up 50% of the leadership roles, does it also happen to be true that the vast majority of those women are white?

[Sandra Hassan]

I don't have that data with me, but I'm one of those women. I am a woman, and I do come from a visible minority, so I'm part of those groups. It's not only white women.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Ms. Hassan, I'll share with you that in the course of the Black Lives Matter movement, this government said a lot about the need for disaggregated race-based data. If you don't measure it, it doesn't get done. While I certainly applaud and celebrate your success as a racialized woman, as a visible minority, there are subsets within the language of anti-racism that include anti-Blackness, particularly within government, and anti-indigeneity.

Have you undertaken any work, as has been signalled by this Liberal government, to disaggregate the data to be able to provide a real clear framework on equity as it relates to employment?

[Sandra Hassan]

The work is ongoing at the Treasury Board Secretariat on data collection, as you mentioned. We are very, very sensitive to the issues that were put to the forefront in regard to the Black Lives Matter movement. We've also seen in Canada unfortunate events happening with aboriginal peoples as well.

Yes, the work is ongoing. Hopefully, the specific data you're looking for, which I do not have with me, is—

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Can I ask you, then, about the federal Pay Equity Act and that policy? Have there been any early discussions? I know that many people, including Minister Bardish Chagger and many other folks, have spoken about how they are directing for dissagregated race-based data. Is anything aside from gender included in the equity approach to pay equity?

[Sandra Hassan]

With the Pay Equity Act, the way the policy has been developed is that we will be looking at the groups and determining whether the group are female or male predominant or—

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

But no disaggregation within that?

[Sandra Hassan]

No.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

For instance, we wouldn't get any information as to whether or not there was systemic favouritism, as was suggested today in the House, of one particular subset or group and not others?