Evidence of meeting #101 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was investigation.
A video is available from Parliament.
11:15 a.m.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
Okay.
You were very clear on the 45 days for the preliminary review. Is there any timeline established for the formal phase?
11:15 a.m.
Executive Director, Professional Integrity, Canada Border Services Agency
Depending on the complexity of the investigation, we aim to complete a formal investigation between 60 and 120 business days.
Of course, when we're dealing with more complex files or files that involve potential criminality, those timelines can extend significantly.
11:15 a.m.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
Okay, so you establish timelines of 60 to 120.... If there's any potential criminality, then there are no timelines for it.
11:15 a.m.
Executive Director, Professional Integrity, Canada Border Services Agency
That's right.
11:15 a.m.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
I only have about 10 seconds. Is there any date established by which you're going to publish your report?
11:15 a.m.
Executive Director, Professional Integrity, Canada Border Services Agency
No. We'll be done when we're done our work.
11:15 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
Thank you, sir.
We have Mrs. Vignola, please, for six minutes.
11:15 a.m.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Lafleur, thank you for being here.
Recent newspaper reports have alleged that certain public servants deleted emails. Did they pertain to a sensitive file, specifically Botler AI?
In your past investigations, did you often find that emails regarding a sensitive matter had been deleted?
11:15 a.m.
Executive Director, Professional Integrity, Canada Border Services Agency
Not intentionally, I would say.
11:15 a.m.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Is there an email management process for supply processes? I am not referring to sensitive files only.
11:15 a.m.
Executive Director, Professional Integrity, Canada Border Services Agency
I am not an expert on contracts. As managers, however, we are responsible for ensuring that all of our decisions are documented.
11:15 a.m.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Do all departments document their decisions in the same way or does each department have its own methods?
11:15 a.m.
Executive Director, Professional Integrity, Canada Border Services Agency
I am not familiar with that level of detail, unfortunately.
11:15 a.m.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Okay.
A whistleblower who requested and was granted an investigation appeared before this committee. We realized that people were protecting each other. That was how it looked at least.
With due respect, I would like to know, in cases that appear to be as serious as the present one, whether it makes sense for CBSA to conduct its own internal investigation. Would it not make more sense for the investigation to be conducted by someone outside the agency who is completely independent?
11:20 a.m.
Executive Director, Professional Integrity, Canada Border Services Agency
My role is to provide an investigation function which is indeed independent. I do not work for management as such. I would say that we are working for the agency when we conduct investigations. That is how I explain it to my team.
A completely independent function would certainly add a degree of assurance, but I am very comfortable with our approach.
11:20 a.m.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
What happens when your investigation is finished? Are your recommendations binding? Is any misconduct that is identified explained and corrected? Are those at fault sanctioned?
11:20 a.m.
Executive Director, Professional Integrity, Canada Border Services Agency
Let me clarify something: we do not make any recommendations in our reports. We establish the facts of the matter and draw conclusions as to whether or not the allegations are founded.
Once we have completed our report, it is sent to management. It is up to them to decide, depending on the circumstances involved, whether disciplinary action is warranted. That can range from a verbal warning to suspension, and even dismissal in extreme cases.
11:20 a.m.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
So you do not make any recommendations. You draw conclusions as to whether there was misconduct, and management then makes a decision.
At the same time, when members of management themselves are involved, management still decides on any action to be taken. In that case, is there not a risk that management would simply give those at fault a slap on the wrist, telling them not to do it again in order to protect the agency's reputation?
11:20 a.m.
Executive Director, Professional Integrity, Canada Border Services Agency
If the investigation pertains to senior managers, the report is sent to the agency's top executives. They are the ones who have to take action and are responsible for the decision.
11:20 a.m.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
So you are saying that your role is not to follow up on the report. Your role ends once the report is submitted.
You know, Parliament Hill could be described as a rumour mill. And indeed, there is no shortage of rumours. Let's say there is a rumour that parliamentarians with access to confidential documents on a sensitive matter inform witnesses of the content of those documents or provide them to witnesses. Would that be included in your investigation of the matter? Would such practices be included in your investigation?
11:20 a.m.
Executive Director, Professional Integrity, Canada Border Services Agency
No, not the actions of MPs.
11:20 a.m.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Okay. So you only investigate members of management and public servants and so on.
11:20 a.m.
Executive Director, Professional Integrity, Canada Border Services Agency
My role is to investigate Canada Border Service Agency employees.