Government Operations Committee on Feb. 5th, 2024

[Michel Lafleur]

Of course.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

However, I have access, sir, to your “Project Helios” preliminary statement of fact, for both Cameron MacDonald and Antonio Utano, and you interchange the concept of fact, which is a proven entity, and allegation. In fact, the title of the document is “Project Helios” preliminary statement of fact. That's misleading, and it's wrong—isn't it, sir—because these are allegations.

[Michel Lafleur]

The report itself is a point-in-time document, so—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Sir, these are allegations, allegations brought by Botler AI—yes or no?

[Michel Lafleur]

There are allegations that—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

They're not a proven fact, are they?

[Michel Lafleur]

They are not.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

I would suggest to you that you be much careful in the future, as it relates to this investigation and other investigations, and that you understand, sir, the clear difference between an allegation and a fact, because you interchange this throughout your report.

The statement of fact, this preliminary statement of fact, was ultimately sent on to the new two departments that Mr. MacDonald and Mr. Utano are employed by. Is that right?

[Michel Lafleur]

They were.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

You expressed serious concerns, notwithstanding that nobody has been interviewed. Mr. MacDonald hasn't been interviewed. Mr. Utano hasn't been interviewed. Minh Doan hasn't been interviewed. Erin O'Gorman, the president of the CBSA, hasn't been interviewed. Former president John Ossowski has not been interviewed.

You've identified a number of key individuals you want to be interviewed, and none of them have provided you with an interview. Have they?

[Michel Lafleur]

I'm not going to speak as to—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

I have the information right before me, sir. It's very clear that none of them has agreed to interview with you yet.

[Michel Lafleur]

Perhaps I could add a point of clarification there. The report was a point-in-time assessment of the evidence on December 19—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

I don't care about a point in time. This is affecting the lives and livelihoods of Mr. MacDonald and Mr. Utano.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

Can I ask my colleague Mr. Brock to allow the witness the same amount of time to respond? The line of questioning is very interesting. I'd just like to hear the responses.

[An hon. member]

He's not going to run out the clock—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Both of you, stop.

I've stopped the clock, but we've established in this committee that it is the member's time.

Please continue, Mr. Brock.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

You made conclusions that were so significant that you felt that these were proven facts of serious employee misconduct. They were so serious that you required the RCMP to investigate at least two criminal charges, fraud and bribery. Later on in this report, you declare that there is absolutely no evidence of bribery as outlined by Botler AI in their allegations.

Do you remember saying that—

[Michel Lafleur]

I do.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

—and that to date there is no evidence of bribery? Did you actually share that with the RCMP? I'll bet you didn't.

[Michel Lafleur]

That we have no evidence.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Yes. Did you share that with the RCMP?

[Michel Lafleur]

We have provided information to the RCMP—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Did you share the fact that you have no evidence to support the allegation of bribery with the RCMP—yes or no? It's a simple question, Mr. Lafleur.

[Michel Lafleur]

I disagree that it's a yes-or-no question. We have provided—