Government Operations Committee on Feb. 14th, 2024

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Oh. Did she just move it as a subamendment? Okay.

I want to speak in support of Ms. Vignola's subamendment.

There are a few things we have to parse out about what Mr. Sousa is doing here, because, for fans of Doctor Dolittle, I think we see a bit of “pushmi-pullyu” appearing to happen at the same time.

I think the reality is that we have seen efforts by the government members to limit the investigation into this issue. They opposed the initial motion calling for the audit of ArriveCAN. They tried to prevent—and, in fact, did prevent—the internal investigator from testifying. They have tried to suggest that we shouldn't be exploring this issue until an internal investigation is complete, but that internal investigation is marred by significant risk of interference, given that the internal investigator reports within the existing structure of the CBSA. The CBSA cannot be trusted to investigate itself.

We've had an excellent report from the Auditor General, and we've had an excellent report from the procurement commissioner, and the work of this committee must continue. I think further work is required by the Auditor General on the issue of other contracts involving GC Strategies.

There are some aspects of the amendment that just seem odd to me. Why would you take out the numbers? They've been reported. It's not as if they're a secret.

On the specific issue of the subamendment, I think it's a good subamendment, because we are not supportive of efforts to bury this issue and bury this conversation. It's the job of committees to report to the House. This is a serious issue, and we think the work of the committee should be reported to the House.

I hope we can adopt the subamendment and then continue going forward.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Is there anyone else on Ms. Vignola's subamendment?

I see Mr. Kusmierczyk and Mr. Sousa.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Could we suspend for one minute, please, just to be able to discuss it, because there are both an amendment and a subamendment on the floor?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Sure, if we can keep it quick. Thanks.

We are suspended.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I call the meeting back to order. We are back in session.

I think Mr. Genuis has the floor.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Chair, I just want to clarify the subamendment that we're talking about.

I think there's some ambiguity around the language that says, “and that the committee report these findings to the House”. I think maybe it would make sense for it to say, “and that the committee report this to the House”. I don't know if that is what the subamendment was or if that's a new subamendment.

An Auditor General's report goes to the House. What is important here is that when a committee makes a request for an audit, that does not carry nearly the same weight as when the House makes a request for the audit, so I think we need to report this request to the House in order to ensure that the request for the audit actually comes from the House as a whole.

That can be done quickly, but it does require that reporting to the House. I don't know if I can make a friendly clarification of the subamendment.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I think it might be easier just to have a vote, vote it down and then go back to the amendment and introduce a proper—so to speak—subamendment, as opposed to subamending the subamendment to the amendment to the motion.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

If I understand correctly, you're asking me to repeat—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm sorry. It's Mr. Bachrach and then Mr. Sousa after Mr. Genuis. Then we'll come back to you, Mrs. Vignola.

Mr. Bachrach.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thanks Mr. Chair.

On the topic of reporting to the House, I think the best time to have a fulsome debate in the House on this topic is after we've received the report from the audit that we're requesting.

Reporting the motion to the House doesn't seem to me to be necessary. What we really want to get out of this is for the Auditor General to conduct an audit into the items that are listed in the motion. Given the seriousness of the allegations and the information that's been uncovered to date, I would hope that the Auditor General would take that request very seriously.

I certainly support the content of the motion and the direction that this is heading in. However, I don't think having a debate in the House prior to the completion of the audit is well considered or necessary at this point.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks. I'll just chime in quickly to address that, Mr. Bachrach.

The issue is more that the committee cannot, even with a motion, compel the AG to do the report. The idea is that if it goes to the House, the House can ask the AG to do it. We cannot. I am going to assume that is the intent behind reporting it to the House.

It's Mr. Sousa, and then we'll go back to Mrs. Vignola.

[Charles Sousa, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

In regard to the subamendment, it's the original amendment by the Conservatives. It's their own wording that we're bringing back.

Notwithstanding what I just heard, I don't understand that aspect, but we're prepared to support your friendly amendment to the amendments and proceed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

We'll go to Mr. Genuis, and then we'll see if there's still a speaking list.

I'm sorry. Give me a second.

Mr. Bachrach, your hand is up. Did you wish to speak again to this subamendment?

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

It's just on that last part, which is on the subamendment to put the reporting to the House back in.

Is that correct?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

That's Mrs. Vignola's subamendment, yes.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I guess my understanding of it differs.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm sorry; I'm just asking if your hand is up or not.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

It is up, yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Okay. We'll get to you after Mr. Genuis.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Just for procedural simplicity, I think the simplest thing to do, if there's a desire to do this, is to adopt Mrs. Vignola's subamendment. Then I would like to propose another subamendment, which might be adopted or rejected. It seems that just allows us to move forward.

Is there agreement to adopt Mrs. Vignola's...?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

We have Mr. Bachrach on the speaking order. Then perhaps we can get to a vote on Mrs. Vignola's subamendment.

Go ahead, Mr. Bachrach.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

As I was saying, Mr. Chair, I support the idea of the House asking the Auditor General to conduct an audit.

What I don't support necessarily is our trying to instigate a debate in the House prior to the results of that audit being tabled. I think it's really the results of that audit that are going to be important to inform our debate. I would prefer that we focus on urging the Auditor General to conduct the audit.

Maybe there's a misinterpretation on my part in terms of what that clause of the motion aims to do. Usually when we see these sorts of things, the intention is to trigger a concurrence debate in the House. If the intention is actually to get the House to request the audit of the Auditor General, I would support that fully.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I think that is the intent.

Do we need a vote? Are we in agreement on Mrs. Vignola's subamendment?

(Subamendment agreed to)

We are back to Mr. Sousa's amendment, as amended.

Go ahead, Mr. Genuis.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Now that we're back on the amendment and we have the language “and that the committee report these findings to the House”, I think we need a bit of clarity about what we're reporting.

Obviously, when the Auditor General's reports are complete, they are tabled in the House. I think what we mean to do is report the request for the audit to the House, to advise the House of our desire for that audit.

I would propose that we add the words “this request and” ahead of “these findings”. It would simply say, “and that the committee report this request and these findings to the House”.

I think that clarifies what we mean here.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Great. We're back to a subamendment. I'm going to have the clerk read back Mr. Sousa's now-amended motion with Mr. Genuis's subamendment. The clerk is going to read it back. I'll have him read it back in both languages, colleagues.