Evidence of meeting #112 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cbsa.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jonathan Moor  Vice-President, Comptrollership Branch, Canada Border Services Agency
Alexandre Martel  Executive Director, Procurement, Canada Border Services Agency
Mike Leahy  Director General, CARM Project Directorate, Canada Border Services Agency

Noon

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Good afternoon. I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 112 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates, also known as OGGO, the committee so nice they named it twice.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(c) and the motion adopted by the committee on Monday, October 17, 2022, the committee is meeting to consider matters related to the ArriveCAN application.

As always, colleagues, keep your earpieces away from the microphones. It causes feedback and potential injury to our very valued interpreters.

I understand, Mr. Moor, that you have an opening five-minute statement.

Go ahead, sir. The floor is yours.

Noon

Jonathan Moor Vice-President, Comptrollership Branch, Canada Border Services Agency

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair and honourable members of the committee.

I would like to thank the Auditor General and the procurement ombud for their reports, which have identified some important lessons for us all. The Canada Border Services Agency has already implemented a number of actions to address their recommendations.

At the onset of the pandemic, the CBSA was focused on protecting our borders while maintaining the flow of essential travellers and trade. The agency needed to adapt its operations at a time of considerable uncertainty over health risks.

The need for ArriveCAN arose quickly when it became clear that the manual paper-based processes for tracking contact tracing and the health information of travellers did not meet the needs of the Public Health Agency of Canada. PHAC asked the CBSA to assist it by developing a digital form. The first version of ArriveCAN was released six weeks later.

Over the following two and a half years, the CBSA responded to the changing health requirements set out in over 80 orders in council by releasing 177 different versions of the app. The agency has estimated that the border health measures related to the ArriveCAN app cost $55 million, including a number of non-IT costs, such as $6 million for the Service Canada call centre.

The Auditor General's and procurement ombud's reports have identified a number of serious weaknesses in the procurement and internal controls processes. We have accepted their recommendations and our management response plans are already under way. I would like to highlight a few of those actions aimed at strengthening the agency’s governance and assurance functions.

We have strengthened the first line of defence by requiring all HQ staff with financial delegations to retake four procurement training courses to help them better understand their responsibilities.

Given the weaknesses in procurement oversight, we have established a new executive procurement review committee to strengthen the second line of defence by reviewing all contracts and task authorizations over $40,000.

We have also established a new procurement centre of expertise, which is developing an ongoing program of quality assurance reviews to ensure compliance with the directive, with a particular focus on the need for proper record-keeping.

Our management response plans are aligned with the plans of other government departments, as developing the ArriveCAN app was a shared responsibility. The agency leveraged PSPC’s contracting authorities for over 30 of those contracts and Shared Services Canada's for seven contracts. The CBSA was the contracting authority for the remaining four contracts.

In the first year, the agency was responsible for managing the development, enhancement and operations of the ArriveCAN app on behalf of the Public Health Agency of Canada. However, no new funding was received in the 2020-21 financial year, and the costs were coded to a general COVID-19 pandemic measures account, which would have included other pandemic-related expenditures, such as personal protective equipment and enhanced cleaning.

The agency did establish a dedicated financial code in the second year, when funding was provided by the Public Health Agency of Canada and Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada. In hindsight, this should have been created earlier.

I am very proud of my employees, colleagues and the frontline border services officers who served Canada throughout the pandemic. We acknowledge the serious deficiencies and we welcome the lessons learned. We are now focused on addressing the recommendations that have been made.

We would be pleased to answer any questions.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Thank you very much.

We'll start with Mr. Brock, please, for six minutes.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Thank you, Chair.

Good afternoon, gentlemen. Thank you for your attendance today.

My focus will largely be with you, Mr. Moor, but I invite anyone else on the panel to weigh in if they feel they can contribute in some fashion to the response.

I appreciate your opening statement, Mr. Moor. We've heard that from a number of officials at the CBSA. I mean no disrespect when I say this, but I'm not interested in lessons learned. I'm interested in how we got here and the issues that are really concerning to Canadians.

There seems to be a culture of hiding information, threatening those who come forward, reprisals and a general lack of accountability from senior leadership at the CBSA. This committee has bona fide concerns that the CBSA's top brass is covering up and deliberately trying to hide their actions while scapegoating others. There are now over 12 investigations taking place because of this debacle.

My time is limited. I'll be asking for straightforward and honest responses, please.

Mr. Moor, we've seen the arrive scam briefing packages that went to Ms. O'Gorman. Your name is all over these documents, as is Minh Doan's and Kelly Belanger's. This committee has been lied to by current and former senior CBSA leadership, particularly Mr. Doan, Ms. Belanger and the former president, Mr. Ossowski.

I expect you to tell us the truth today. Will you agree to that, sir?

12:05 p.m.

Vice-President, Comptrollership Branch, Canada Border Services Agency

Jonathan Moor

I hope everyone tells the truth and answers your questions to the best of their ability. I will certainly do that.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Thank you.

The biggest question that we need to put a final point on, without deliberating any further, is this: Who at the CBSA was responsible for the decision to choose GC Strategies, also known as Government of Canada Strategies? We've had evidence from Cameron MacDonald on two occasions confirming, and Antonio Utano confirming, that it was Minh Doan.

We also have, and this was really telling, a public document, an ATIP response from the CBSA, that confirms, in annex A of the document, that in answer to “Who made the decision to contract GC?”, it was “My office”, in reference to Minh Doan's office and Kelly Belanger's office—the same office:

My office made the decision to pursue the contract with GC Strategies.

The two proposals for the work were presented to the CIO and President, and the decision was made to proceed with GC Strategies as their proposal and approach aligned with what the CBSA was looking for, particularly rapid staff augmentation.

The Deloitte proposal was a managed service using their Cloud instance. This would have involved additional risk, and did not align with our direction to build Cloud/Mobile competencies [with] the Agenc[ies].

Are you prepared, right here and right now, to confirm once and for all that it was Minh Doan who ultimately made the decision to go with GC Strategies—yes or no?

12:05 p.m.

Vice-President, Comptrollership Branch, Canada Border Services Agency

Jonathan Moor

I'd like to provide some additional clarification for the committee. There were two decisions here. The first decision was how the ArriveCAN app would be developed. That decision was a staff augmentation decision. The decision was to keep this in-house in order to develop the app and use staff augmentation to bring in the technical services required.

The other option was the managed services approach, which was the Deloitte option. It was decided at that time by the executive committee that the managed services option would not be appropriate, because it was unclear what the statement of work would be from the Public Health Agency of Canada.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Sir, this is all evidence that we've already heard. I don't need you to waste the valuable time I have by repeating that. I'm sure you've been following the committee and you know what the evidence has already led to.

Will you confirm with me right now, at this point in time, that Minh Doan was charged with the responsibility of choosing GC Strategies?

12:10 p.m.

Vice-President, Comptrollership Branch, Canada Border Services Agency

Jonathan Moor

I can confirm that, once the staff augmentation model was agreed, the ISTB was responsible for putting in place the resources required, whether those be resources from—

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Was that Minh Doan, sir, yes or no?

12:10 p.m.

Vice-President, Comptrollership Branch, Canada Border Services Agency

Jonathan Moor

He was the vice-president of the information, science and technology—

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Was that Minh Doan, sir, yes or no?

12:10 p.m.

Vice-President, Comptrollership Branch, Canada Border Services Agency

Jonathan Moor

He was the vice-president. It was a decision made by—

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

The vice-president at that time was Minh Doan, correct?

12:10 p.m.

Vice-President, Comptrollership Branch, Canada Border Services Agency

Jonathan Moor

That's correct.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Why did you have a difficult time saying that?

12:10 p.m.

Vice-President, Comptrollership Branch, Canada Border Services Agency

Jonathan Moor

He is the vice-president, but all documentation has been signed by—

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Okay, that's the end of discussion. You've now confirmed, as many people have confirmed, that it was Minh Doan. Minh Doan repeatedly lied to this committee, saying that he didn't personally make that decision, that his team did. I'm very glad for your honesty, and we can clarify that and move on.

12:10 p.m.

Vice-President, Comptrollership Branch, Canada Border Services Agency

Jonathan Moor

But I think—

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Sir, I ask the questions.

This was such a political hot potato for the government that the Minister of Public Safety at the time, Marco Mendicino, had significant concerns with Government of Canada Strategies, particularly with the millions of dollars received. We now know that it received upwards of $19 million for its involvement in this particular boondoggle. We know that Cameron MacDonald was threatened by Minh Doan. On October 28, 2022, there was a phone call. He was told that the public safety minister at the time, Marco Mendicino, was unhappy with the ArriveCAN media coverage and “wanted someone's head on a platter”. He was worried that either he or you, sir, Jonathan Moor, “were going to get fired”. He was talking about someone's head on a platter.

Is that my time?

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

That is your time, sir.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Thank you.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Mr. Moor, perhaps you can get back to replying in the next round.

Mr. Sousa, please go ahead for six minutes.

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

Charles Sousa Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Moor, do we even have a contract? Does it even exist, a company by the name of Government of Canada Strategies?

12:10 p.m.

Vice-President, Comptrollership Branch, Canada Border Services Agency

Jonathan Moor

There is a company by that name. In the ArriveCAN..., there are four separate contracts in the name of GC Strategies.