Government Operations Committee on March 26th, 2024

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you.

In October 2022, when we started our study, spending on the ArriveCAN app was said to amount to roughly $54 million. We were told that this amount included the cost of advertising outside of Canada, in airports, and so on.

Today, that figure has climbed to $59 million, and we can't tell which costs relate to advertising. We see that $6 million was earmarked for the Service Canada call centre.

How much money does CBSA transfer to Service Canada annually for call centres? Does the $6 million pertain to the ArriveCAN app only, or does it include a bunch of other CBSA sectors?

How much is currently being spent on advertising to maintain the app and inform people on how to use it?

[Jonathan Moor]

So—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Mr. Moor, we need a very brief answer or perhaps you can get back to us in writing.

[Jonathan Moor]

Yes. I think, very briefly, the Service Canada call centres were operating for two years. They actually managed 645,000 calls from members of the public, from travellers.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you.

Mr. Bachrach, go ahead, please.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Moor, I have a question about the CBSA's involvement with Botler. Granted, this deals with a project other than ArriveCAN, but I think it raises some of the same concerns around the diligence of the agency to confirm that the work was actually completed.

In 2021 the company Dalian submitted invoices for work done by Botler and, specifically, those invoices included billing for time allegedly spent on the project by Ritika Dutt, one of the principals of Botler. At the time, Ms. Dutt was on medical leave. This was known to CBSA's border technologies innovation directorate, and yet they went ahead and paid the invoice to Dalian anyway. Why was that done given that they knew that Ms. Dutt couldn't possibly have done the work since she was on leave?

[Jonathan Moor]

In February 2021, the CBSA contracted with Coradix in a joint venture with Dalian. It was for six particular outputs. The CBSA paid for two of those outputs because that work had been done. They did not pay for the other four outputs because that work was not done to a satisfactory level. It was not about individuals. We were not paying on an hourly basis; we were paying an an output basis.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

The invoices that were paid specified work done by Ms. Dutt. Is that correct?

[Jonathan Moor]

They specified work that had been done. They did not specify who had done it within the Botler organization.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Okay.

On the invoices, there was no indication of who was billing for the work.

[Jonathan Moor]

It was on a task-based system, so we were paying for the tasks that had been completed.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Okay, but for these task authorizations, there are time sheets. Is that correct?

[Jonathan Moor]

The time sheets are not relevant when you're doing tasks, because what you're doing is saying, “We will pay you this amount of money for delivering this output.” We're not saying, “We will pay you x dollars per hour.”

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Upon the completion of that work, there is documentation submitted to indicate that the work was completed and who did the work. Is that correct?

[Jonathan Moor]

There's a document. They were writing particular documents. We received those documents and we decided whether the documents had satisfied the requirements of the task authorization.

One of the documents, for example, could have been a plan. If the plan was satisfactory, we did not have any input on who wrote the plan.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Did Ms. Dutt—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

That's the time.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Okay.

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

You can ask a very quick question.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Did Ms. Dutt contact the CBSA and advise you not to pay the invoices because it was for work that was not completed?

[Jonathan Moor]

My understanding is that Ms. Dutt contacted the CBSA, but that was inappropriate, because we should not be working with subcontractors. That's not our role.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Berthold, welcome back to OGGO.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Moor, I want to go back to an answer you gave my colleague about the letter invoking the national security exception. The letter mentions the fact that it entails an exemption from the rigorous procurement process normally required when awarding contracts.

Mr. Moor, do you acknowledge that you signed that letter?

[Jonathan Moor]

Are we talking about the national security exception and the reference to an alternative supplier?

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Yes. You signed it. I have your signature.