Government Operations Committee on March 28th, 2024

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I'll do my best. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being with us, Premier Higgs.

Premier, you started your remarks by talking about the cost of living for New Brunswickers. Certainly, the cost of living for Canadians is something that everyone on this committee is concerned about.

In 2022, when inflation was even higher than it is now, people were struggling with the cost of living, and Canada's big corporations were making record profits. There was one analysis by an economist by the name of David Macdonald, and he found that for every dollar spent on those higher prices, 47¢ was converted to corporate profits. Now, 25¢ of that dollar went to corporate profits in just four industries, the leading one of which was oil and gas. For every additional dollar in inflationary costs, a quarter of that was going to the corporate profits of the companies that are producing and selling gasoline to consumers.

I'm wondering, when this was happening, when these corporations were gouging Canadian consumers and New Brunswickers, did you speak out publicly on behalf of New Brunswickers?

[Blaine Higgs]

I have said all along that I think industry has to do its part and has to produce the cleanest energy, with the lowest energy consumption to do so and with the lowest emissions.

I think the point—

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

To be fair, sir, I'm not talking about emissions here. I'm talking about the cost of living and the costs consumers are paying at the pump. Did you speak out and say that corporate profits are too high?

[Blaine Higgs]

I'm not familiar with the specifics of where the profits lay in the ratios that you just described, but I would say this: I think that we need to look at the cost of operating in our country and the cost of keeping businesses here. We've seen a huge exodus of businesses, particularly out west in Alberta, and we know the alternative. We know the alternative right here in New Brunswick. If you reference oil and gas, we know that we can buy refined product from countries that have no environmental standards at all, but we're still using the product.

We can make that choice of whether we want to buy from less.... They're not less efficient, but they're countries where we would not subscribe to their practices in any way, shape or form. There's the challenge that you have in the industry because, as you push—and I'm not saying that you shouldn't have full visibility into that because I think that's important—you will see that our operations are likely the cleanest in the world. So where do you go? Can we get better? Absolutely. Should profits pay for that in a company? Absolutely. However, we do know that for any producer of a commodity, the prices end up in the consumers' hands. Unless we control those companies as state-owned companies, then that's where it comes, and we know that.

The balance is between how we keep companies operating, maintaining their facilities, and staying here and how we have a fair price that they pay for operating in our country. That has to be looked at in great detail. It's nothing that I can just do politically and say, “We should do this.”

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I guess what I'm trying to get at, Premier, is that you've been very vociferous about the carbon price and the impact on consumers. If you look at these things proportionately, if you look at the impact of the carbon price on the price of gas, or if you look at the contribution of the carbon tax to inflation, and then at the numbers from the Bank of Canada, which I'm sure you're familiar with, analysis shows that 47¢ of the inflationary dollar went toward corporate profits. We have the Bank of Canada saying that 0.15% of inflation is caused by carbon pricing. Those seem to be vastly disparate numbers. I'm asking about the clear price-gouging by oil and gas companies.

I looked at GasBuddy and looked at New Brunswick. The price of gas in New Brunswick has gone up 20¢ since January. The federal government is talking about 3¢ as of April 1. I'm wondering if you've spoken out on behalf of New Brunswickers, who are getting gouged at the pump by these oil and gas companies that are raking in massive profits.

[Blaine Higgs]

Maybe you know how the pricing model works. Basically, it's [Inaudible—Editor] market where the regulated pricing is set, and then the calculations go beyond that.

What I do know for sure is that 20¢ of that right now is carbon tax. By 2030, 62¢ of that will be carbon tax. That goes to the federal government in a circle program that is supposed to be solving climate change.

We do know that, don't we? In 2030, 60¢ will be sent to the federal government. Why? What is that achieving? Maybe there's a combination to look at everything, but we do know how to take 60¢ a litre off the price of commodities at the pumps and what people are paying.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I guess I was hoping, Premier Higgs, that you would speak out against the corporate price-gouging, which is really the factor that's costing New Brunswickers so much. But I'll move on to another question.

Pierre Poilievre has said that a Conservative government would not pull Canada out of the Paris Agreement. Is that a position that you support?

[Blaine Higgs]

I think there's a focused need to continue on the emission reduction program, and if the Paris accord is.... You know, it's important to carry on in that program. I'm not suggesting that we pull out of anything. My suggestion is simply for us to be broader than Canada, to think bigger about the impact.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

That's fine. We all want to think globally. But to be clear—

[Blaine Higgs]

But we're not. We're not thinking globally. We're not even pretending to think globally.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Premier Higgs, you said that you support staying in the Paris Agreement. The Paris Agreement is almost entirely predicated on reducing domestic emissions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm sorry, Mr. Bachrach. We're over time. Can you wrap up your question, please, sir?

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I will. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Are you saying, Premier Higgs, that you think we should stay in this international agreement but not live up to its core tenets?

[Blaine Higgs]

I'm saying that we can do so much better. If we are sitting idle, costing people more money, and we're not impacting the world emissions, then whom are we fooling? Maybe the Paris accord should be modified to say that those nations that can have a greater impact should have the opportunity to do so.

If you do a comparison—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you. I'm sorry to cut you off, but we're past time, I'm afraid.

Mr. Ellis, welcome to OGGO. You have five minutes, sir.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Thanks, Mr. Chair. It's good to be back at OGGO.

Mr. Premier, thanks for being here today on this very important topic.

I grew up in New Brunswick, and I'm happy to be representing Nova Scotia in Cumberland—Colchester. Our premier here, Premier Houston, said the carbon tax is misguided and unfair. We know very clearly that those of us who choose to live rurally suffer significantly from the carbon tax. Could you talk, sir, about the stories you've heard from the New Brunswickers you represent? Certainly, I'm getting stories every single day about the affordability problem.

If you could comment on that, Premier, I would appreciate that.

[Blaine Higgs]

Well, certainly, there's no question about that. We are a sparsely populated province. We don't have the mass transit systems. We don't have the subways. The idea is that people use their vehicles every day to get to and from work, so it has a greater impact on a province like ours. It's a reality.

Yes, we hear it every day when people spend more. We have a greater demand every day. How do we offset this high cost? How do we do this differently? That becomes the whole argument around the carbon tax. When we say what it's actually achieving, 8% of the 1.5% of world emissions, it's saying that we're taking a lot of hurt because of this ideological approach to emissions in the world, or climate change. Are we really going to make a difference in Canada?

I guess the point is that I just don't see the value in continuing to find a way to mitigate a very poor policy. Fighting this carbon tax is a reality. We know what people think across this country. They believe in climate change. We can provide a solution. The Prime Minister asked for a solution. I think I've outlined a real possibility here to make a major impact, and we're stuck on saying, “No, no—carbon tax.” But I'm sure you're not getting that in any one of your ridings, because this affordability is real. When you stop at the pumps, when you go into the grocery stores, when you go to the lumber stores, when you buy anything that involves transportation and getting it to New Brunswick, transportation is in everything that we buy and sell.

The important part here is this: Let's face the reality of what it means to everyday people. I'm saying 20¢ right now, or 17.6¢, off the pumps immediately would be a real start. We're evaluating regulated pricing to see if we're better off without it. We've had it 20 years. The idea is that we know that 60¢ is coming and we know that it will continue to get worse. Let's fix it now, make a difference and still impact the world's emissions in a positive way.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Thank you very much, Premier Higgs. That was very insightful on behalf of all your constituents out there.

It's interesting, sir; we talked a bit about the rebate, of course, that our Liberal colleagues want to say is so great. Do you think we actually have an understanding of how much this actually costs everyday people from New Brunswick and Nova Scotia? The carbon tax, as you mentioned, is applied to everything we have that comes via supply chains. Do you think we have a good understanding of exactly the unbelievable extent to which the carbon tax is hurting Atlantic Canadians and New Brunswickers in particular?

[Blaine Higgs]

No, I do not. We talk about the isolated issue at the pump and we're getting a rebate based on what we spend on fuel. Well, that isn't a rebate on groceries. It's not a rebate on hardware purchases or any other purchase. There doesn't seem to be any discussion about that.

This idea that we increase the numbers dramatically in the federal service in order to deliver on a circle program, to actually circle back and think this is a solution, I think has really come to light as the prices go up. On this next one, my colleagues in the government and in opposition say we shouldn't do this, because they're getting the same message I am. Certainly, the Liberal leader here is saying the same thing: We shouldn't do this. I think that's a pretty big message. The Premier of Newfoundland said the same thing: We shouldn't do this. If they didn't think their own federal government was creating hardship in their province, would they be saying this?

You can say, well, I might say it anyway—

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

I have a point of order.

[Blaine Higgs]

—but I'm not saying it anyway. I'm providing a solution to do something better.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm sorry, Mrs. Atwin. I didn't quite hear you. Do you have a point of order?

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm just wondering about the use of props. I see something behind Mr. Ellis that could be in the prop category.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Could you be more specific? My eyes are probably not as strong as yours.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Well, I hate to use the sloganeering of our Conservative colleagues, but I see an “axe the tax” sign right behind him. That would be inappropriate, I think, for the context of today.