Government Operations Committee on June 5th, 2024

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

What is it you want to say regarding PHAC and ministers?

[Minh Doan]

Can you reread this text to me that I would have written?

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Chair, can we stop the clock?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

We'll have to wait for the next round for that. We're at our time.

We have Mr. Bains, and then we'll do our last five-minute suspension.

Mr. Bains.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Mr. Doan, you've indicated that you're being forthright and co-operating with all and every investigation that's taking place. Can you walk us through what you've been co-operating with? Who's been contacting you? Which investigations and which departments have been talking to you?

[Minh Doan]

Yes, I will be happy to answer that question.

Of the groups I have met with, I met with the Office of the Auditor General for the report that was eventually tabled. I met with not the Auditor General herself but her team. I also met with the internal investigators at CBSA, both on the ArriveCAN investigation and then more pointedly, in the same meeting with the investigators, I was asked questions about the alleged email deletions.

Those are the individuals I've met with and co-operated with so far.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

The IT employee complaint that came from CBSA said that you permanently destroyed emails and other documents—that's untrue? You've indicated today that they never get destroyed.

[Minh Doan]

The specific allegation was that I moved files that resulted in the loss of emails. I also find interesting the timing of this allegation that comes out. My dates are not specific, but it was at least eight, nine months after the event. They felt so strongly about wrongdoing that they waited eight, nine months, once all of this was unfolding in the news and in the media, to then flag that they had concerns of something that happened eight, nine months ago.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

The Auditor General's criticism of a lack of record-keeping regarding ArriveCAN was that improper documentation persisted over a long period of time. Can you identify how long that's been going on?

[Minh Doan]

I believe the scope of the audit and review in the report was since the pandemic began. Unfortunately, I would agree with it wholeheartedly. The documentation and processes that we did during the pandemic were insufficient. Technologists in general are not great at documenting their code and others in normal times. In the time of a pandemic, unfortunately, we did not document these key decisions well enough.

In hindsight, a lesson I learned is that, as counterintuitive as it may be, during a crisis when the house is on fire is exactly the time you want to document every single decision that is made to avoid situations like the one we find ourselves in now. The documentation wasn't as rigorous around the decisions and others as it should have been.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

We heard testimony from Mr. Firth and his partner that the processes haven't changed for over 20 years. Is that accurate?

[Minh Doan]

I couldn't comment on Mr. Firth's opinion of processes.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

You know the processes. You've been there, you said, for 25 years yourself. Have they changed over the time?

[Minh Doan]

The tools available to the public service for record-keeping repositories have evolved absolutely over time. They've gotten better. Tools around collaboration for things like Office 365 and the cloud have improved.

The processes themselves have been modernized through directives, like the directive on service and digital from the Treasury Board. They evolve, perhaps not at the speed that we need them to, but they have evolved. I believe your question was over 20 years.... They have evolved and changed over 20 years.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Has that modernization allowed for misfiling or these kinds of intricate recordings to be found? That this is missing, certain things are missing and they're not there...?

[Minh Doan]

There is always room for improvement. It doesn't matter if it's process or technology or both.

There's always room for improvement and unfortunately there's a trust and verify...as well: You are supposed to use certain processes—it doesn't matter if it's contracting or procurement, but if somebody nefarious, for whatever reason, doesn't want to, there are sometimes ways to circumvent them.

As technology evolves, there are fewer and fewer ways...and there are more controls in place. I believe that CBSA has started putting in place controls and checks and balances that perhaps should have been there during the pandemic.

Yes, the controls, and the technology and processes, are improving as we learn from these events.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you, gentlemen.

That brings us to the end of this round. We'll take a five-minute suspension.

We'll be back for the final round.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

We are back in session, everyone.

Thank you very much for your continued patience.

We're back to the final round.

We have Mr. Brock for five minutes.

Go ahead, sir.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thanks, Chair.

Some loose ends, Mr. Doan.... The issue regarding your legal fees: Has that been paid by CBSA?

[Minh Doan]

Yes, it has.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you. That's fine.

Now, earlier today, sir, you referenced some affidavits. I think you were referencing affidavits pertaining to both Cameron MacDonald and Antonio Utano.

Is that correct?

[Minh Doan]

Yes, that is correct.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

You specifically raised those affidavits because you claim...or at least your evidence today was that there was evidence in those affidavits to suggest that it wasn't you who selected GC Strategies, but rather either Mr. MacDonald or Mr. Utano. Did I get that right?

[Minh Doan]

Yes, you did.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Do you have those affidavits before you, sir, in that room?