Government Operations Committee on Aug. 21st, 2024

[Robert McCubbing]

Yes, I work with the consul general.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I would like some very general information. I don't know all the journalists, and I don't know everyone's biography.

When referring to Mr. Clark, are we talking about the journalist who moderated the debates at the last Conservative Party leadership race?

[Robert McCubbing]

Mr. Chair, Consul General Clark is a former broadcaster. I'm not 100% familiar with his complete work history, so I'm not sure if he moderated the previous Conservative debate.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

That is our time, I'm afraid.

Mr. Bachrach, good early morning to you. Over to you, sir, for six minutes.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Good morning, and thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much to our witnesses.

As was remarked earlier, it's great to have folks here from Global Affairs who were more intimately involved in the acquisition we're discussing than some of our witnesses yesterday.

I want to start perhaps at a high level and talk a little bit about why this issue has come before the committee. I think part of it is that the properties that are selected for consular use in cities like New York tend to be expensive. They tend to be in expensive parts of town, and the opulence and the ostentatiousness of those properties make them, rightfully, I think, a target for questions about the appropriateness of those purchases.

At the same time, I think we all want to ensure that our consular staff and our diplomats have appropriate facilities for their important work.

The apartment we're talking about is located in a neighbourhood that's known as Billionaires' Row, and we're having this conversation at a time of historic wealth inequality and an affordability crisis that my colleagues have already mentioned. I think that's one of the reasons we're focusing in on this particular decision. Global Affairs chose to buy an apartment on Billionaires' Row in a neighbourhood that has some of the most expensive real estate in the world.

My first question, probably for Mr. Cousineau, is whether in the decision-making process the optics and the potential implications of buying a property on Billionaires' Row at a time of historic wealth inequality, both in the United States and Canada, came up as a potential risk factor for Global Affairs.

[Stéphane Cousineau]

First, I'd like to say that we are looking at a heritage building in the Midtown district.

As I said in my opening remarks, this heritage building is an old building that was recently renovated. We are not in the skyscraper, which might have led to the branding that's being reported in the media. We're not in that building.

Also, I'd like to reiterate that we have a process that actually looks at specific criteria to respond to diplomatic needs, which include location, security and other criteria.

I'd be pleased to turn to my colleague Robin, who is responsible for real property and can articulate how we got to our decision about 111 West 57th Street.

[Robin Dubeau]

Thank you, Stéphane. Thanks for the question.

What I will offer to the committee is that we have a set of guidelines and a real property manual that exists that has a chapter on how to select official residences, which lays out basically the characteristics that we're looking at and also what kind of location we would like to acquire.

We picked that residence there, and as I said in my previous intervention, it's a place of work where we hold meetings and it's also a place where the consul general will live, so we have two sets of criteria that we need to apply here. There is the criterion for a good location to be able to deliver the program that we have, the program being the representation functions that we need to exercise abroad. We locate the official residences where contacts are accessible and where other like-minded countries are located, and nearby our office as well for various reasons. We have a set of criteria for the selection of the official residence for the living space.

In this particular case, what happened is we looked with the real estate broker at 21 properties that are located in seven—

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

If I could interrupt you, sir, sometimes the original question gets lost a little bit in the explanation. The original question was whether the optics and the perception that might be associated with purchasing a property in an area colloquially known as Billionaires' Row was ever discussed as a risk factor by Global Affairs during the purchase decision.

[Robin Dubeau]

During the process, we applied all of the factors and basically found that place in the seven neighbourhoods that we visited. We saw that it was considerably cheaper or less expensive to be located in Midtown, which is the location where we purchased. The question of Billionaires' Row did not surface at that time, because we were looking at the characteristics, location and functionality of the property.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Okay, I appreciate that. Now, here in Canada, certainly my colleagues and I are working very hard to implement policies that promote equality, that create opportunity for working people, that create solid social programs that lift people up and that address some of the gross inequalities that we see in places like the United States, and certainly to some degree in our own country.

Was it ever discussed by Global Affairs that purchasing a consular property in a neighbourhood that was a little less ostentatious might be more consistent with some of those goals that we've been pursuing as a country over the past number of years?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm going to interrupt there. We're out of time, but perhaps you can get back to that in the next round or provide that to us in writing.

I'm going to Mrs. Block for five minutes, please.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you, Chair.

I'm going to start off my round of questioning with a couple of requests. Yesterday, in our deliberations with TBS and PSPC, I had asked for a list of the real property that GAC is the custodian of, and the witness advised me that I needed to put that request to you, so I'm asking if you could table that list of real property holdings with this committee.

[Stéphane Cousineau]

Mr. Chair, it will be our pleasure to provide that list.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you.

As well, based on the information we received yesterday, could you table with the committee the life-cycle costing for keeping the current residence and repairing it and for the purchase of a new residence, including the sale of the current residence?

[Stéphane Cousineau]

Mr. Chair, as explained, part of the process was looking at this option analysis and the financial implications of the three options. We will be pleased to provide the analysis that was done.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you very much.

In your search for a new residence—and I'm probably following up on a similar line of questioning to the previous member—did you consider the purchase of a residence away from Manhattan in a more cost-effective neighbourhood?

[Stéphane Cousineau]

There are criteria that we looked at, as mentioned, and as it was pointed out, New York is a very expensive market. I just wanted to refer to some examples of other countries. The U.K., for example, five years ago bought something that's valued today at $21 million. It is an expensive market in whatever district you are going to be looking at.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

I'm sorry, but surely there are more cost-effective neighbourhoods than, as my colleague referenced, Billionaires' Row.

[Stéphane Cousineau]

This is bringing me back, Mr. Chair, to the actual criteria that we have to look at when we establish the location and we do this analysis.

I'll turn to Robin, who can articulate what those criteria are and why it is important to be in the right location.

[Robin Dubeau]

The question is about the location in Manhattan. The first thing we ask when we select a location or a property is whether the location is able to deliver the program needs. In this case, all of the G7 and G20 countries have either an office or an official residence on Manhattan Island, so it made sense from a program perspective and for proximity to be located in the same area.

On the question about where in Manhattan, of the 21 properties we visited in seven different neighbourhoods, we picked the cheapest, or one of the cheapest, per square meter on the list that was available, and that's the one that was located in Midtown and that we acquired.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Perhaps you could provide for us a more detailed explanation of what program requirements dictated this need. You've mentioned the need to be co-located, but what other program requirements are taken into consideration in order to be located on the south end of Central Park in Manhattan?

[Stéphane Cousineau]

We do have a framework that includes all these criteria that we're alluding to. We have a manual that includes those criteria as well.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Can you table that?

[Stéphane Cousineau]

Mr. Chair, we would be pleased to share that manual that already exists.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

I guess my next question would be this: Do you believe that purchasing a residence in a more cost-effective area would have an impact on Canada-U.S. trade or diplomatic relations?