Government Operations Committee on Oct. 1st, 2024

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Okay. I thought that was precisely why you were here, actually, to provide answers to the questions we have about grants and contributions at Environment Canada.

This isn't just one niche grant we found. There appear to be at least a dozen entries for different American universities, so it seems that, as a matter of policy, you fund—or at least you don't exclude from funding—foreign academic institutions in a developed country that could be funding their own university research.

We obviously have world-class institutions here in Canada that could be doing this research. Abstracting from any individual grant, at a level of policy, why is this government funding university research at American institutions when instead those resources could be supporting researchers and institutions here in Canada?

[Jean-François Tremblay]

I need to look at it, because it could even be Canadian researchers working at Cornell—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

What's the policy, though?

[Jean-François Tremblay]

There are partnerships on the research side with all countries and globally. We work with all countries on this. There could be partnerships with Cornell.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I'm sorry, but this—

[Jean-François Tremblay]

We have partnerships with the University of Calgary. We have partnerships—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Sir, with great respect, it's great to have partnerships, but this isn't an instance of us supporting Canadian institutions that are then partnering with other institutions. As I can see on your website, these are cases of grants and contributions to academic institutions in the United States, public and private academic institutions, some that are famous for having massive endowments. Typically, it would be normal, in another developed country at least, for those to be funded by the country in question.

I'm not satisfied by your answer, and I would hope that you could come back to the committee with more detail in writing. I'm not asking you to provide very specific details about an individual grant. I'm asking about the policy.

I have another question. How do you define if an organization is indigenous for the purposes of identifying indigenous organizations to receive funding? How do you verify claims that may be made about indigeneity?

[Jean-François Tremblay]

We work with the first nations and Inuit organizations at the national level through the engagement process that we have with them. That's the way we identify.... For example, if you look at the—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Sorry, can I just clarify that? If there's an organization on this list identified as, using the language of the website, an aboriginal organization, would it be safe to assume that organization is recognized as such by one of the major national representative bodies, or not necessarily?

[Jean-François Tremblay]

I hope so; I haven't checked for each of them because there are a lot of them, but normally, yes.

However, as you know, there is—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Sorry, you say normally yes. You either check or don't check. If you don't check, then you hope so. If you do check, then normally yes.

[Jean-François Tremblay]

You have to understand that even some national organizations have issues among them in terms of recognition, so I cannot talk about that.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Yes. I understand there are some marginal cases.

The reason I ask is that we're doing a study at this committee on indigenous procurement, and we've had national organizations—AFN, in particular—that have come to this committee and told us that there are many groups on government lists that are accessing indigenous procurement set-asides but are not indigenous. Their estimate was that out of the claimed 5%-plus for indigenous contracting, the number was closer to 1%. That was from the AFN.

Do you think that proportion is likely true and would likely apply in the case of your grants?

[Jean-François Tremblay]

It would likely apply here. It's a concern for us, making sure that we work with the organizations that are recognized as first nation, Inuit, and Métis organizations.

We have a director general, who's actually first nation, managing the engagement with first nations, Inuit, and Métis, and it is in areas that we actually develop to make sure that we have the right partnerships with the communities and the organizations.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Sousa.

[Charles Sousa, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for appearing before us.

Reading through the report and some of the recommendations made, I recognize that there are, of course, corrections being taken, and management agrees. Is that correct?

[Jean-François Tremblay]

Yes.

[Charles Sousa, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

When we look at the process of selecting a project or a recipient, further to the question that was just asked of you, what is the process?

[Jean-François Tremblay]

It's very different from case to case, and that will remain even if we have a more centralized approach.

There are contribution agreements or programs for which the organizations have already been identified. There are programs we manage that are really funds for specific organizations with which we work, so there isn't a call for proposals. It's really more of a partnership.

There are cases where we have programs with provinces. We don't select provinces. They've been selected by the Constitution, if I can say that, and the history of this country.

We have programs for which we have calls for proposals, and they're more classic, typical programs that people apply for.

It really depends on a case-by-case basis.

If you look at, for example, the programs under the EDF, which is a statutory program, the funding is under court action. The court directs us on how to spend the money, and we go and spend the money. Those are cases like the Volkswagen case.

It's really different from program to program. The important point is that they should all ask the same questions about what the best approach is for them based on criteria, not just because I want to do it this way or that way. That's what a structure should do. That's a good mix between normalization and flexibility.

There's no one-size-fits-all solution, but there should be an approach that allows you to understand what the tools are and what they mean.

[Charles Sousa, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you for that.

You just mentioned the provinces. How do you determine that the funding is equitably distributed between the provinces?

[Jean-François Tremblay]

I never worked on the equalization, so I will not go too far into that.

It depends on the program. There are some programs.... When the government develops the program, it has to decide if it is going to use the population or use a flat number and add up the population. When I was at Infrastructure, that's what we did for the territorial governments, for example.

Are you going to use an approach that is based more on emissions? If there are proceeds that are returned to Canadians, for example under the OBPS, the money has to go back where it came from. Provinces or businesses that emit more emissions will get more.

It really depends on the program, and it is based on what you're looking at in terms of objectives.

[Charles Sousa, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

That's interesting. It begs the question, how do you ensure that the results are achieved and that Canadians are getting a good return on this investment? How does that come to be?

[Jean-François Tremblay]

Again, it's a good mix. Especially with contribution agreements, you have to agree with your partners on what is doable. With the provinces, we have to sit at the table. When you negotiate an agreement on nature in B.C., it will be different from an agreement on nature in Quebec or in Ontario. You have to go into a partnership with them and agree on what the framework is and what outcomes are coming out of there.

We will come with our own national objective and try to see how much we can get for our national objective, while understanding that there are regional particularities that need to be taken into account.

[Charles Sousa, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Ms. Drainville, we've heard a lot about the changes being made, the applications, the restructuring, actions being taken and so forth, but how do you ensure that the funding is being spent properly by the recipients?

[Linda Drainville]

What we have internally are specific controls to ensure that once we proceed with a payment—Mr. Tremblay previously referred to section 33—we have all the documents on file demonstrating that the activities for which the money was committed have been taking place. We have proper controls, and those controls are reviewed on a regular basis to ensure that they are updated to the way the business process is working internally. That's what we are doing.

As far as the results achieved are concerned, my colleagues from the programs can tell you more about how the results come together overall.