Evidence of meeting #142 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was programs.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jean-François Tremblay  Deputy Minister, Department of the Environment
Linda Drainville  Assistant Deputy Minister and Chief Financial Officer, Department of the Environment
Marie-Claude Soucy  Director, Grants and Contributions Centre of Expertise, Department of the Environment

Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you for allowing Ms. Soucy to attend our committee. I really do appreciate that. That was an important gesture.

I'm very heartened to hear that our federal government has increased federal grants and contributions by $650 million since 2016.

Last week, I had a chance to join about 50 local community stakeholders in Windsor to announce $76 million. It was the largest freshwater restoration investment in the history of Canada in my community. It will benefit areas of concern. It will reduce phosphorus loading, which will help mitigate and prevent dangerous and toxic algae blooms. I can tell you that local organizations, like the Great Lakes Institute for Environmental Research at the University of Windsor, the Essex Region Conservation Authority, the Ontario Greenhouse Vegetable Growers, Caldwell First Nation and Friends of Ojibway Prairie, were ecstatic about receiving that funding and being able to partner with the federal government to protect our precious Great Lakes. Not only are the Great Lakes vital to our economy and our agricultural sector, but they are absolutely part of our very identity as residents of our wonderful community. I can tell you that the partners in that community called that investment generational.

I want to contrast that with the previous Harper Conservative government, and it's important to make that contrast. They slashed funding to Environment Canada—we're talking hundreds of millions of dollars—and muzzled government scientists, especially scientists working on the environment and climate change. This is what the Information Commissioner reported on.

The CRA was tasked by the previous government with going after environmental charities and attacking them. In addition to that, in 2013, there was the elimination of the budget for the National Round Table on the Environment and the Economy, a critical round table that brought in experts from all across the country. It was eliminated for the sin of actually testifying and bearing witness to the fact that we have a climate crisis and we need to do more.

A Conservative member of Parliament, MP Bob Mills from Alberta, a long-standing member who was very much pro-market, stated that this was a mistake: “Stephen Harper puts other priorities...ahead of the environment and I think that's a mistake. Obviously, I wouldn't be here if I didn't really strongly believe that the round table was doing an excellent job”. That's what Bob Mills, a former Alberta Conservative MP, said at a press conference.

All of those things were cut. It's important that we understand the context of what we are talking about here today: a government that believes in fighting climate change, a government that believes in environmental work and a government that is putting money into those initiatives.

Having said that, we can always do better, and that's why we're here today. That's what we're trying to do: build trust for Canadians in these investments and in these programs.

The audit report stated, as you mentioned, that there are inconsistencies. Basically, the audit report stated you're relying on two separate systems to administer grants and contributions. I'm not an expert, Ms. Soucy, but I imagine that presents a challenge in terms of consistency and being able to verify funding and measure it. Can you speak a little bit about the troubles that the dual system represents and what we're doing to actually fix it to create that consistency across that system?

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

You have about 30 seconds.

Marie-Claude Soucy Director, Grants and Contributions Centre of Expertise, Department of the Environment

Just to put that in context, the reason we have two systems is that we had to build a system specifically for one particular program around 2016. They had specific needs. It was a very complex program, so we had to build a system particularly for them.

Now that we've grown and we realize that it's not necessarily efficient to have two systems, we're looking to build one single enterprise system. We're actually in the planning phase of that. We're doing some benchmarking with other departments to see what would be the best solution to bring all the ECCC programs into one single system. We're leaning toward that.

Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

When, Ms. Soucy?

12:30 p.m.

Director, Grants and Contributions Centre of Expertise, Department of the Environment

Marie-Claude Soucy

We're doing the plan right now. Developing a system takes time, so it won't be overnight, but we are planning to go ahead and have one system. That decision has already been made.

Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Thank you.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Thank you, Mr. Kusmierczyk.

Mr. Genuis, go ahead, please.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Thank you, Chair.

To the witnesses, is it appropriate, in your view, to have a grant go to just a named individual? Is that something we should be seeing—that it goes not to an organization or a business but simply to the name of a recipient? Is that something we would expect to see or not?

12:30 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of the Environment

Jean-François Tremblay

It may happen when it's an award, for example.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

What do you mean by an award?

12:30 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of the Environment

Jean-François Tremblay

The person has been the one developing a new initiative and receives funding for it.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

I'll give just one example. I won't name the individual, because maybe there's a story here. I would like to know more about this. There's a specific named individual who got $65,000. The program's purpose, as listed, is to increase the recipient's knowledge of wildlife on the subject lands and assess rangeland health as an indicator of habitat quality on the ranch and implement beneficial practice changes to further protect or enhance habitat for species at risk. Parts of that seem more credible than others, but in particular, it talks about increasing the recipient's knowledge of wildlife on the subject lands. I mean, I can't imagine there's anybody in the country who wouldn't want $65,000 to do that.

Does that seem normal to you?

12:30 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of the Environment

Jean-François Tremblay

Maybe a lot of people would like to have it, but they're not necessarily qualified to have it. I don't think I would be. That's not my area of expertise.

We can find the information for you.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Okay.

12:35 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of the Environment

Jean-François Tremblay

When I was a Ph.D. student, I received grants. It was exactly the same circumstance. You receive money to continue your study or your work. It could be a case like that.

We will need to come back to you on this.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Okay. It's just that for studies, in many cases you have the recipients listed as universities. You're telling me that the recipient could be an individual, if that individual was doing research, but you told me earlier that maybe the recipients being American universities means there are researchers there who are Canadian.

12:35 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of the Environment

Jean-François Tremblay

I will need to get you the information on this. They're not the majority of our cases. They're really kind of unique. Good for you to find them, but we'll have to come back with a written response.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Okay.

I guess I would say, in general, that the purpose of this exercise should be that Canadians, not just parliamentarians who have privileged access to officials, can look on the website and know what's going on and who got the money.

I want to come back to your comments about non-Canadian institutions and give you one example that I found. This is $65,000. It's given to Clarkson University, a private university in Potsdam. The program purpose is optimization and testing of a new passive dry deposition sampler.

Is that not something that could have been done in Canada?

12:35 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of the Environment

Jean-François Tremblay

If the researchers made the agreement, it's probably because it could not. There are areas where we're at the top and there are areas where we're partnering with others. They come with their own views and their own things. We can send you an answer that comes from the scientists. I won't talk on behalf of the scientists on the reasons for this.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Right. I'm not questioning that there might be scientific value. It's just the question of what role the Government of Canada has in funding research. I think most people would expect that it would involve funding research in Canada and building up our Canadian institutions. It's not our role to be funding academic research in the United States, a country that can fund its own academic research.

12:35 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of the Environment

Jean-François Tremblay

You don't fund research in a country in isolation. You have to do it in partnership with institutions outside.

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Right, of course, but.... This is, I guess, just a problem of accountability, though.

I'm looking at the recipient's name. If there's a partnership between a Canadian and an American institution, you would probably expect that the Canadian institution might be applying for funding in Canada and the American institution might be applying for funding in the United States, and those institutions are entering into a partnership using funding that they have together.

In this case, we have a situation where the program recipient is.... This isn't an isolated case. We have many cases of this in here. For the user of this information trying to understand what your department is spending money on, there is ambiguity and uncertainty around what it actually means when a particular recipient is identified.

Is this something you acknowledge needs to be cleaned up, so the public can actually understand what's going on?

12:35 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of the Environment

Jean-François Tremblay

We owe you more information. I recognize that.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Sunlight is the best disinfectant.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Thank you, Mr. Genuis.

Mr. Bains, we'll go back to you, please.