Government Operations Committee on Oct. 1st, 2024

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Good morning, everyone. I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting 142 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates.

Before we start our meeting, I remind everyone to please keep your headphones away from the microphones at all times.

Today is the cut-off for recommendations for the Canada Post study. I'm hoping we'll get to the line-by-line a week from this Thursday, so this is just a reminder to have this done today. We haven't received anything yet. I'm quite happy to extend it by a day, if that's what we would like, to allow everyone to have time to send recommendations, or is today fine? Why don't we say tomorrow by 3 p.m. for recommendations for Canada Post? That's wonderful.

Before we start, Mr. Kusmierczyk has an item.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Yes, Mr. Chair. This may be a point of order, but I see that we have a number of officials from Environment and Climate Change Canada in the audience. These are officials who, I believe, have expertise to share that's pertinent to today's discussion on grants and contributions at ECCC. We have the director for the grants and contributions centre of expertise in the audience, an ADM and Mr. Winfield as well. I ask that they be included and allowed to sit at committee here, officially, to field our questions.

They are here in the audience. I just request that the committee allow these experts from ECCC and grants and contributions to join us for this important conversation here today.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Go ahead, Mr. Genuis.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I have a staffer here who's a pretty smart guy, so maybe we can put him on the panel as well.

Traditionally, we don't normally just add people who show up at committee and who aren't on the witness list. If they have things to offer, they could have been pitched earlier, perhaps, and the chair could have made that decision. They could be future witnesses. I don't know.

Just as a matter of principle, I'm uncomfortable with a member of Parliament raising a point of order on the day to say that there are some people in the crowd who should be added as witnesses. That's not at all consistent with how committees are supposed to function, so let's just get on with hearing from the witnesses who are on the meeting notice.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'll go to Mr. Sousa, quickly.

[Charles Sousa, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

It begs the question, did all five witnesses agree to come forward? Who made a decision to have only two when maybe there could have been more? I'm just trying to get clarity.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

This was announced last week, and agreed upon last week.

[Charles Sousa, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

So it is not happening just today. This point was brought forward.

I believe they may have had more than the two being requested or agreeing to come forward.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

No, it was last week that we announced it would be these two, and it was in agreement with the committee that it would be these two only.

[Charles Sousa, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Why only the two and not the five? Who made that decision?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

It is up to the parties to submit the others as witnesses, but these are the two.

I understand what everyone is saying. I'm of the opinion that these are the two we agreed upon. It's the deputy minister and the CFO, who are able to answer our questions.

I'll go to Mr. Kusmierczyk, and then we'll start.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Mr. Chair, just to be clear, as I understand it, we had submitted these names to appear at committee. It's my understanding that we asked five officials to appear. As chair, you allowed two to appear, and three were declined.

If that's the case, I just want to get an understanding of why, as chair, you declined to accept or to allow the three officials that we put forward to appear.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks, Mr. Kusmierczyk. These three were not on the witness list. There was one who is on the witness list but is not available to appear, I think, for three more weeks.

These three were not on the witness list. That's what I'm being told by our clerk.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Again, my information is that these names were submitted to the clerk.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

We'll just recheck. The clerk is rechecking right now.

While the clerk is doing that, can we do the opening statement?

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I think we can. Yes, let's get to it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

We will go ahead with the opening statement.

Mr. Tremblay, welcome back to OGGO. Go ahead with your five-minute opening statement, sir.

[Jean-François Tremblay, Deputy Minister, Department of the Environment]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I apologize in advance for my voice, which I hope I'm going to have for the next two hours.

Before we begin, I would like to acknowledge that we are gathered on the unceded territory of the Anishinabe Algonquin nation. They are the people whom we acknowledge as custodians of the land and waters of the region since time immemorial.

The mandate of Environment and Climate Change Canada has been significantly broadened, which has led to an increase in funding, particularly for grants and contributions. It has become a key part of the department's activities, which was not the case a few years ago.

In 2024, Environment and Climate Change Canada will deliver nearly $1.4 billion in grants and contributions. This funding supports a variety of objectives that benefit us all, such as protecting species at risk and recovering their natural habitats; preventing and managing the effects of air pollution; reducing harmful emissions and helping Canadians and organizations adapt and become more resilient to the effects of climate change; and working closely with indigenous peoples as traditional stewards of these lands, not only to advance conservation and climate objectives, but also to further the tenets of reconciliation.

As deputy minister, I am responsible for ensuring that the delivery and management of transfer payment programs are accessible, understandable, inclusive and gender- and diversity-sensitive. Though ECCC has experienced considerable success in the delivery of grants and contributions programming, there is always a need for continuous improvement.

We saw how each program within the department continued to progress with its individual goals, but we wanted to see how the overall management of the grants and contributions has adapted to growth. This is why we identified the review of the management of grants and contributions as a priority and undertook this internal audit.

This audit was an important step for us in reviewing the system. It has provided helpful insight into aspects of the programming to improve. The audit identified key issues to address.

It confirmed that an enterprise-wide IT and IM solution is necessary for the most effective management of the grants and contributions in the department. It revealed that department-level policies and processes in both the design and the delivery of grants and contributions need to be strengthened to ensure consistent service to Canadians. It indicated that service excellence requires the implementation of a comprehensive training program tailored to the roles of the various ECCC staffers involved in the delivery of the grants and contributions programming.

We have already taken action, and we are further engaged in broader changes that will fully address the issues identified in the audit.

For example, a recipient audit function was launched in the fall of 2023. We are now in the second year of doing recipient audits, which are conducted by external audit firms. An investment oversight committee to provide a challenge function on high-risk grants and contributions proposals was also introduced in 2023.

A transformation team of public servants with extensive grants and contributions experience has been put in place to address the recommendation of the audit report and lead the review and transformation. A survey of best practices among other departments with regard to governance and structure is currently taking place to make sure that we benefit from lessons learned and best practices.

A review of internal controls is currently under way. Plans for an enhanced, full-service centre of expertise are in development. The centre of expertise will support the department's design and delivery of grants and contributions in some key areas, bringing consistency among practitioners.

We have made this work a priority and expect to have a plan ready for full implementation by January.

My colleague and I are available to answer your questions and to provide you with details on our grants and contributions programs and processes, as well as our achievements to date.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks.

Just bear with us one moment.

Colleagues, I'm going to make an executive decision here. One of the officials who came in from Environment, Ms. Soucy, is actually on the list submitted by the Liberals, so I'll allow her to sit at the table.

Ms. Soucy, if you could, just move up quickly, and then we're going to start the questions from Mrs. Block for six minutes.

Mrs. Block, go ahead.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for joining us today as we dig into what I would call an extremely damning report. The auditors noted several issues, including an inability to demonstrate value for money and, as you noted in your opening remarks, the need for much improvement.

Mr. Tremblay, how long have you been in your role as the deputy minister for ECCC?

[Jean-François Tremblay]

It has been 12 months.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

As the deputy minister, you are responsible for the government's day-to-day operations, including the budget and the development of programs. Is that correct?

[Jean-François Tremblay]

Yes.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

In your opening comments, you referenced that you are also responsible for the department's grants and contributions budget. Is that correct?

[Jean-François Tremblay]

That's correct.