Evidence of meeting #142 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was programs.
A video is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK
According to the audit report we're discussing this morning, ECCC's budget increased from approximately $1 billion in 2015-16 to $2.5 billion in 2023-24. At the same time, funding for grants and contributions increased by $625 million.
Was this increase in funding for grants and contributions directed by the minister at any time?
Deputy Minister, Department of the Environment
What do you mean by “directed by the minister”?
It comes from the decisions made by this government to develop new programs. If that's what you mean, then yes.
Conservative
Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK
Yes. Thank you.
Did the minister ever check to see if the department had the capacity to administer the increased level of grants and contributions? Are you aware of any ministerial questioning or oversight to see if the department actually had the capacity to administer the program?
Deputy Minister, Department of the Environment
The responsibility for the delivery of programs is within the department authorities, which means it's mine, and the department itself. It is through the Treasury Board submission and through the checks and balances processes that we actually assess the capacity of the department.
Conservative
Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK
Did the minister ever allocate more resources for administering these grants and contributions?
Deputy Minister, Department of the Environment
The resources are allocated by the government in general. There could be reallocation within the department sometimes, depending on the needs. It's done under my authority more than the minister's authority.
Conservative
Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK
Thank you.
Did the minister ever ask for updates about how the administration of these grants and contributions was going?
Deputy Minister, Department of the Environment
The issue we're facing as a department is that this department is very decentralized. It was like that before. You have the people doing the weather on one side. You have the people doing protections of environment. You have people doing international. They're not necessarily used to working together from a grants and contributions perspective. This is what we're facing.
We have a lot of small programs in this department that have their own rules and processes, and they achieve results. I cannot say they are not achieving results, but it's not sufficient as a department.
That's why we called this audit. That's why we made some changes. It's because we want to make sure that the sum of the programs is more than the sum of the programs.
Conservative
Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK
Was the announcement of this program and the creation of the bureaucracy to oversee it at the minister's direction, or was this something that was determined by the deputy minister and other ADMs?
Deputy Minister, Department of the Environment
The way it works in the government is that if you have new initiatives and new programs, it is for the departments to assess how many public servants or full-time employees you need to do that. It will go to the Treasury Board, and Treasury Board will assess if the demand is reasonable and makes sense. This process is done by the bureaucracy.
Conservative
Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK
Was the minister ever involved in the approval of any projects? I believe I read in the report that he, together with yourself, was involved in at least half or 13 out of 29 projects that were spoken about.
Deputy Minister, Department of the Environment
It goes with the level of authorities 99% of the time, which means that, for example, I would have authority up to $1 million. The minister would have it above that. The ADMs and others will be lower. It depends on the contribution agreements and on the project.
Conservative
Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK
Thank you for that.
Was the minister made aware of the undertaking of this audit?
Deputy Minister, Department of the Environment
I have bilats with the minister, and I told him that grants and contributions were a priority and that we needed to review. There was discussion on a weekly basis with his staff.
I don't know when they were made aware, but it is our responsibility to do internal audits when we assess that we need to do it.
Conservative
Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK
Is there a plan for the department to reduce spending on grants and contributions until you have the capacity to provide proper oversight for the level of spending that has been undertaken?
Deputy Minister, Department of the Environment
The increase of funding that we have is really in some specific programs. Those programs are performing quite well. It's not necessarily that they're not producing results.
My concern is more about the fact that we have 68 different initiatives under 14 different activities or program authorities. We don't necessarily need to have one ring to rule them all, if I can use that expression, but we need at least one framework to manage them all. At the moment, that's not something we have. We take a risk-based approach on all the programs. If we feel that we don't have the systems in place to correct and make sure the spending is going in the right place, we will slow down, for sure.
Conservative
October 1st, 2024 / 11:15 a.m.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and welcome to our witnesses.
Let me open by thanking the department for taking the initiative to do the internal audit. I've had a chance to read the report and look at the findings and recommendations. As my colleague MP Block mentioned, we now have a $625-million budget for Gs and Cs.
Let's take a step back and really look at the mandate letter that drove that. Can you briefly talk about the new mandate letter for ECCC? Can you break it down? You talked about 65 programs and 86 projects, etc. Can you put into perspective what that means and how it relates to the mandate letter?
Deputy Minister, Department of the Environment
You have four big themes within the department: pollution, climate change, meteorological forecast, and international. We have a few things we're working on and trying to address. Those programs are aligned with the general activities that we have within the department, basically.
If you look at the LCEF, the low-carbon economy fund—there's nothing worse than acronyms in departments—this fund was to tackle the potential reduction of GHG emissions with partners. That means, essentially, with the provinces, but also indigenous groups and other partners outside of government institutions. About 70% of that was with the provinces and territories.
If you look at programs on nature, which have increased significantly, they were there to secure the commitment made by the government of increasing the protections of land and coastal water. They would be protected by 2030, which is the “30 by 30” goal. If you look at that, that's basically it.
The international was also aligned with the objective and commitment made by the government—if I remember well, it was in Glasgow—to provide more than $5 billion in international climate financing. We did receive some of it. Most of it is managed by GAC, but a part of it is managed by us.
Those are the areas where the increases have been the most significant within the department.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
What that tells me is that despite the fact that our government's fight against greenhouse gas emissions has been portrayed as only a price on pollution, it looks like it's multi-dimensional. There's a spectrum of activity by ECCC, whether it's international or whether it's under protection of land, etc.
Can you demystify that? I know you talked at a very high level. I'm trying to get into the various aspects of our fight against climate change, as well as the complexity of things that have changed. The report itself talks about the challenges. It talks about what you're doing. We need to get an understanding of the multi-faceted approach that we have, as well as the complexity levels of those projects.
Deputy Minister, Department of the Environment
There was a debate before about mitigation of climate change versus adaptation and how to balance both. The way we see it now—and it is seen more internationally—is that there is an environmental crisis. It's not one or the other; it's all of those elements that need to be taken into account.
If you look at our lines of business, there is more programming for protection of land and biodiversity, as well as making sure we have the forest we need for the future. In our case, for example, the commitment was made to have 30% of the lands and the coast of this country be under protection by 2030. We were at about 10% on the land. We're now at 13.6% and it's going up. On the ocean side, we were at something like 6%, and we are now at more than 15%, if I remember well. Those are basically the numbers, and that comes from the increased investment in nature.
You have to add to this the nature agreements that we're signing with provinces. We have one with B.C., one with Nova Scotia and one with a third province, and we're negotiating with others. You have funding for adaptation.
Internationally, there is a big commitment that the government has made, as I mentioned, and that's the $5.3 billion. I can tell you the kinds of projects that are funded and what we expect from those projects, if you want.
The mandate of the department is not just GHG emissions reduction; it's about the environment in general, and that includes.... This summer, you've seen my officials from the meteorological service providing technical briefings and working with emergency centres across the country to try to have a better sense of what's going to happen from the fire perspective, as well as the flood perspective, depending on the season.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
I have only about 20 seconds left.
Can you talk about the complexity?
Deputy Minister, Department of the Environment
It's very complex, in our case, not just because of the number of projects and programs, but also because, as you mentioned, we work on three fronts. We work internationally, we work nationally and we largely depend also on provinces and regions.
This is the most local and the most international file I have ever managed from a deputy minister perspective.
