Government Operations Committee on Oct. 1st, 2024

[Jean-François Tremblay]

For example, if you look at my different sectors, the science and technology branch has some grants and contributions agreements, but it is mostly them managing it, because they are the researchers and they are working in their labs testing new materials and developing advice from an environmental perspective. This is an area where building the capacity internally is needed for a specific reason because you cannot find it elsewhere, and you want to have it over time and not necessarily for five years, as it is in the classic Gs and Cs program.

It really depends on what you're looking for. It really depends on whether it's core to the mandate of the government.

For example, meteorology is the same. We have internal capacity, because we're the ones who advise on meteorology for everybody in the country, and we need to make sure that capacity is there.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Recommendation 3 of the audit states that ECCC should:

Develop and implement a plan to mitigate information management risks associated with the Shared Drive and G&C Database, including developing guidance on document retention, and a strategy to monitor implementation.

What are the risks of that, and how do you intend to mitigate them?

[Jean-François Tremblay]

The risk is that it's difficult for anybody to reproduce and understand why a decision was made in each case. We need to make sure we have the same information everywhere and that the information is always available. It's more a question for us to ensure that there is consistency in the information that is provided.

It's also a risk for the client, because if you don't have one system, clients who apply to different programs will have to apply through different systems. They will feel that they don't understand what somebody else understands, and that's not the way we should serve Canadians and organizations.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Is that a reporting issue?

[Jean-François Tremblay]

It is a reporting issue, but it's more than that. It's also to make sure that my people on the finance side, when they do finally decide that the money should go ahead and can be provided, find all the information quickly and don't have to call programs.

As we saw in the audit, there are cases where they said the information wasn't there, but when they signed, the information was there. That means the program had not included the information, and my financial people had to call and ask where it was. That's the lack of efficiency that comes with not having a common system.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

That's a systems issue. I think we've seen that in other investigations that have been done.

[Jean-François Tremblay]

It's not uncommon—let's put it that way—but it doesn't make it justifiable.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you very much.

Mrs. Vignola, go ahead.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Tremblay, I'm going to go back to something you said earlier, i.e., that there was a lack of standardization of resources and a decentralized approach to governance.

Are steps being taken, or will steps be taken, to standardize the processes without adding any red tape? Will this review be done internally or externally through a contract awarded yet again to Raymond Chabot Grant Thornton, for example? How will that be done, and what sort of time frame are you looking at?

[Jean-François Tremblay]

There will be no large contract awarded to a third party, that's for sure. The work has to be done within the department, or at least 90% of it. To that end, a plan will be put in place by January. The objective is indeed to review all existing documents to identify discrepancies and duplicate documents that can be eliminated in order to have a more integrated documentation stream.

It's the same thing with training. A lot of training is provided, and in other departments as well. That's another thing to look at.

The same is true for integrated systems. I'm not aware of any department that has an integrated system that does everything perfectly, but some have implemented different solutions that may perform better. So we are in the process of studying all the existing systems. I do not intend to award a contract to a third party to create a new integrated system. In fact, to be honest with you, I don't think IT can be used as an excuse. There are ways to solve our problems without necessarily completely overhauling the system.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you very much.

In the audit, it says that grant recipients “are not subject to reporting on the use of funds. However, they may be required to report on results achieved.”

I'm trying to understand how you can get a grant without having to explain what it's going to be used for.

Is that a common practice?

[Jean-François Tremblay]

That applies much more to grants than to contributions.

We don't administer a lot of grants, but once the money is paid out, we have little recourse. That's the nature of the beast. It's just like a student grant, which is different from a student loan. If you get a student grant, the government won't audit you in the following months.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

No, but we assume that the money will be used to pay for rent and food.

[Jean-François Tremblay]

I agree, but I wanted to explain to you that we have the same relationship with our partners. It is not necessarily the same kind of contractual relationship or partnership that you can have in the context of a contribution agreement where there is the expectation of a result. That's why, at the end of the day, this is important, whereas in the case of—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you, Mr. Tremblay. We're past our time.

Next is Mr. Garrison, please, for two and a half minutes.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to go back to where we left off.

I was asking about kinds of diversity other than first nations in terms of grants and contributions and whether the department has paid attention to the distribution of grants to organizations that may be women-led, 2SLGBTQI-led or racialized Canadians-led, because it's important to enlist, as I've said, the support of all Canadians and the expertise of all Canadians in fighting climate change.

I don't see in the audit any reference to that. I just wonder if there's a broader attention to that.

[Jean-François Tremblay]

It is a discussion. From a data perspective, it's not necessarily integrated in all the programs. It's hard for me to necessarily assess and identify and tell you yes.

Just to give you an example, on the international side, for the $5.3 billion that is spent, that is invested, there were targets there, including for women, for example, and they were surpassed.

It is something that we take into account. This is something that we promote, but we don't yet have, as far as I know, a data system that would allow me to be able to break it down by program.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Often what we find, I think, is that certain groups understand the system, know how it works and are able to access the information necessary to apply for grants and contributions, but in more rural and remote areas and, frankly, in areas away from the capital, people quite often have trouble accessing that information. I'd be interested in efforts that the department makes to broaden the net as it's cast out to get applicants for this important work.

[Jean-François Tremblay]

That's one of the reasons why it's important for us to work with provinces, territories, municipalities and regional and local organizations, because we don't necessarily have the capacity to be everywhere and to find the organizations. You're totally right. On the indigenous side, even on the funding that goes to indigenous groups, you want to make sure that it's not necessarily the ones who have the most significant capacity who actually access the funding.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

In terms of monitoring requirements, smaller organizations can make big contributions, but they don't have the capacity to monitor and report at the same levels that a large corporation or an established municipal organization, let's say, would have. Is there any accounting for that in the programming of the department?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Give just a brief answer, please.

[Jean-François Tremblay]

In sum, yes, there is, including funding for capacity.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Genuis, go ahead, please.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to the officials for being here.

Looking through some of these grants, it's evident to me that there's quite a substantial number of entries for funding to American universities. Nobody could be confused, based on the name. These are institutions like Cornell and Colorado State University. There's one in California receiving multiple grants, and Clarkson, a private university in Potsdam. Why are we funding American universities to do climate change research?

[Jean-François Tremblay]

We have to come back to you with.... I can send you a document on this, if you want a response. I don't have it in front of me.