Government Operations Committee on Oct. 1st, 2024

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I just want to continue on that same line of questioning.

When it comes to receiving grants or outside institutions from other nations doing the same in Canada.... I'm just curious. If it's a partnership and Canadian researchers are here and working with American universities, is it happening vice versa?

[Jean-François Tremblay]

You have both sides. You also have programs on conservation, for example, where you have American foundations that will fund, in part, some of the projects that we have. There is a lot going on.

This is a global issue. This is a North American issue, so there is back-and-forth and collaboration. That's why we also do international financing. People can be against this from a policy perspective, but it is actually the way research is done. With all the reports that we are sending to the United Nations and the peer review that exists at the international level, a lot of this is done by researchers in many universities and in many countries. The work on snow that I mentioned is actually seen by the U.S. as a great opportunity, and we hope that they will potentially invest, too.

Yes, we're looking for how to maximize the use of the funding to get the answer you're looking for.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

We have one example. I had the opportunity to take a U.S. representative to my city of Richmond, British Columbia, where we have one of the largest commercial fishing harbours in Canada. There is an outfit there called Ocean Legacy. They pull plastics out of the ocean and turn them into pellets and make products like shampoo bottles, which I don't use, but I think those are some examples. We've had interest in having those investments come here.

I want to ask Ms. Soucy if she can expand on that same question that I had earlier.

[Marie-Claude Soucy]

For every program, we have terms and conditions that are approved by the Treasury Board of Canada. These are the parameters in which we can give money to a recipient. We have a few Ts and Cs that allow for individuals to get.... It's organizations or international academia, but it could also be an individual. We have a few Ts and Cs that allow for that, but those are in very specific contexts, such as very specific research that only one individual can do.

I'm not sure which ones we're talking about exactly, but I could see that it would be in that context.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

As the director in this area, do you have a more hands-on approach and more knowledge of which projects are happening?

Maybe you can expand on that.

[Marie-Claude Soucy]

We have a very diversified range of projects. Like my deputy minister was saying, on the Canada international climate finance program, we do have grants. We could partner with U.S. universities, as we could partner with other countries and other types of academia or organizations. It depends.

We have a broad range of programs. We have 800 projects a year, so it's difficult to know which project we're talking about here.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Mr. Chair, do I have more time?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

You have one minute and 14 seconds.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Okay.

With respect to the increase in the funding and moving from small- to large-scale program delivery, can you talk a bit about what the increase looks like? Is there a plan to trail it off or keep it going, or will it be done project by project?

[Jean-François Tremblay]

It will depend. It's a government decision in the end.

A lot of those programs will be sunsetting over the next few years. I think the LCEF will be in 2028. Some of the nature programs will probably be close to 2030. Some will be earlier.

If you look at the profile over the last few years, it's probably at its max now, but it's going to go down, so there will be decisions to be made on whether we continue and at which level. It's up to the government and Parliament to make those decisions, not me.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you, Mr. Bains.

Mrs. Vignola.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I am going to use my time to introduce a notice of motion that will not be debated. It reads as follows:

Given that (a) the media reported on Wednesday, September 25, 2024 that the Governor General of Canada, Mary Simon, was still unable to converse in French during a visit to a community organization in Lévis, Quebec, and that she had to cancel certain planned activities during her stay in Quebec for this reason; (b) the Governor General had made a “firm” commitment to learn French by 2021, when she was appointed, and had again stated to Radio-Canada, in an interview in 2023, that she wished to be able to “speak to Francophones” by the end of 2024; the committee: (a) is concerned that the Governor General cannot adequately address Quebec francophones and francophones from francophone communities in other provinces in their mother tongue; (b) expresses its deep disappointment that after three years since her appointment, the Governor General of Canada is unable to sustain a basic level of conversation in French in the exercise of her title as representative of the Sovereign in Canada, and that she has spoken only in English when French is the only official language in the province of Quebec; and (c) requests the Chair to report to the House as soon as possible.

As I already mentioned, this is just a notice of motion. However, if possible, I would like us to discuss the motion I tabled last week inviting the Governor General to appear before the committee. The word “invite” is very important here, since we cannot summon the Governor General to a committee: We can only invite her to appear. It is up to her and her alone to decide whether she accepts the invitation.

The notice of motion that I also tabled last week is similar to the one I just read, except that it cordially invites the sovereign's representative in Canada to come and answer our questions. In that notice of motion, we also invited the Minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Official Languages to answer our questions. Indeed, the situation affects those two individuals.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you very much. The motion put on notice has been distributed.

Can I just confirm that you're not moving the first motion from last week today? Is that right? Wonderful. Thanks.

We are going now to Mr. Garrison for his final two and a half minutes, and then we'll finish with Mrs. Kusie and Mr. Sousa.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I didn't expect you were going to get to another two and a half minutes for me.

I have one final question. How is the experience of your department different from other departments engaged in grants and contributions, and have they found similar problems in terms of accountability?

[Jean-François Tremblay]

This is my sixth department as a deputy minister. They're all a bit different, to be honest with you. There are departments where Gs and Cs programs are basically the first line of business—I'm thinking about Indigenous Services Canada—so you talk about Gs and Cs on a daily basis because that's something you do non-stop. This is a very different department because, over the years, a lot of the focus has been on regulation, protection and meteorology, for example, a line of business where there's a lot of science and a lot of work done internally.

Most of the programs, before they grew so much, were very small initiatives, sometimes a few hundred thousand dollars and so on. If I compare it with other departments, it's probably one of the most decentralized because of this in terms of Gs and Cs management. All the departments have struggled with some of the elements that you see in the audit, but I think this one, of course, is due more to decentralization, and the existing growth is also quite significant.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

If other departments, as we all know, engage in the same kind of activities, surely there are some that have solved this problem and could have some guidance for your department.

[Jean-François Tremblay]

We do a review of all those departments. For example, ESDC has a very centralized approach. Service Canada delivers almost all of the programs. We have approached all the departments, and we're comparing everything. What do they do on conflict of interest? What are the systems they have to manage? Do they have only one system? Is it working? We look at all the controls they have.

Our goal in January is precisely to come up with what we think is the best approach for this department. It's not going to be necessarily identical to other departments, but it should be largely inspired by what we learn.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you.

I just want to say at the end that I think accountability is important, but we shouldn't let this focus on accountability overshadow the good work that's being done by the Department of the Environment and in support of organizations fighting climate change.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you, Mr. Garrison.

I'm glad we were able to fill your bucket list of having appeared at OGGO. I appreciate it.

We'll go to Mrs. Kusie for five minutes, please.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you very much, Chair.

I just have a few more questions to finish our time with you today.

My first question is this: Are the auditors who completed this audit from ECCC?

[Jean-François Tremblay]

They're within the department.

We're the most audited department in the country, by the way.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

It was an internal audit, so maybe it's even more beneficial to bring in the Auditor General to do an external evaluation of the grants and contributions program.

I'm just going to take a moment now and go back. I mentioned Rio Tinto in my first round of questioning. It was brought to my attention that the chairman of Rio Tinto turns out to be Dominic Barton, an individual associated with another study we've completed here.

[Jean-François Tremblay]

I think the Rio Tinto funding is coming from another department, but please go ahead.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

It's coming from your department.