Evidence of meeting #149 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was program.
A video is available from Parliament.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
Thank you, Mr. Kusmierczyk.
We'll now go back to Mrs. Vignola.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
When the deputy minister appeared before the committee, he talked about decentralizing the grants and contributions processes and recognized that excessive standardization and centralization was problematic. How do you strike a balance? How can we avoid the risks associated with standardization and make processes more efficient?
Please answer quickly, because I have another question for you.
Director General, Chief Audit and Evaluation Executive, Department of the Environment
When the management action plan is implemented, this is the thing that the chief financial officer and program managers are going to be working on to make sure there is balance. They will ensure that we don't do overkill in some areas and that we strike the right balance between centralization and giving the flexibility to program managers to manage appropriately.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Thank you.
Here's my next question. The people who manage all these different programs don't necessarily talk to each other. Environment Canada deals with weather and climate change and so on. All the different services don't necessarily talk to each other. Given that, how can we ensure that a person who receives a grant or contribution for a project from one service doesn't get a duplicate grant and won't be double-dipping from another service for the same project?
Has anyone ever received a duplicate payment?
Director General, Chief Audit and Evaluation Executive, Department of the Environment
We did not find any evidence that there were duplicate payments or duplicate types of funding in our audit with the files we reviewed. However, those that manage the programs have processes in place to satisfy themselves that with applications, the sources of funds are there. It's up to program managers to investigate these areas.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Okay.
Absolutely everyone talks about implementing best practices. We see it in government departments here and abroad. It's been that way for some time.
Is there a whole-of-government evaluation system that includes best practices for each area or an interdepartmental sharing network where people can ask for help? Is there anything to support the departments that have to do this research? I've been a member of Parliament for five years, and over those five years, I've noticed that everyone does research.
Somebody's going to have to find a solution at some point.
Director General, Chief Audit and Evaluation Executive, Department of the Environment
There are a few areas here. The Auditor General, obviously, and the commissioner of the environment do horizontal types of audits that look at program delivery across multiple departments. There is also the Office of the Comptroller General, which can do horizontal audits of certain issues.
When you get to the program level, there are programs, such as the low carbon economy fund, in which there are tables where people from different departments sit and talk about these issues. There is a sharing of information there.
When we're looking at the totality of management in our department, one of the questions that came up during the DG review committee was on looking at what was happening in other departments, because we needed to have an investment oversight type of committee that we did not have there. The committee looked at a couple of departments and got some best practices and implemented them.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
Thank you very much.
Ms. Blaney, before we get to you, I forgot to officially welcome you to OGGO. It's wonderful to have you back, not just as a guest but as a permanent member. I extend our warm welcome to you.
The time is yours.
NDP
Rachel Blaney NDP North Island—Powell River, BC
Thank you for that warm welcome. Many have welcomed me, and it's very good to be here.
You're my first witness as an official member of the committee, so it's wonderful to have this opportunity.
You talked about doing the audit, and at the very end of the audit, getting the 14 documents. I believe you said they were not available and then became available.
How did the department get to that place where there were 14 documents that took quite a while to find?
I've seen it in other departments when IT workers were contracted from outside the department, which can lead to some very interesting realities. They're actually not working internally with the rest of the group to see what their needs are on a day-to-day basis.
Is there any correlation with that?
Director General, Chief Audit and Evaluation Executive, Department of the Environment
The most important thing with respect to how we came to 14 files not being where they should have been goes back to the finding that there are multiple systems that are being used, and when you get down to the program manager level, it's also about where they are storing that documentation. It was also identified in the audit that there was a lack of controls over who could actually access the databases, so they have to put more strict controls over that.
With respect to your second question on IT consultants, that did not come up as an issue in our audit. Our audit really focused on the program delivery and the controls that were in place to deliver the programs.
NDP
Rachel Blaney NDP North Island—Powell River, BC
You also talked in your testimony about a “community of practice” that is starting to come together on a regular basis. Was this a model that was found in other departments? What are the outcomes that you're hoping to see coming out of that through the auditing process?
Director General, Chief Audit and Evaluation Executive, Department of the Environment
I'm not sure how the “community of practice” came about. It was one of the recommendations in the DG committee review, one of the 17.
They started, I think, in late 2022, when they put a monthly meeting in place. Attendance is about 70 to 80 officials from across the department, and they're sharing practices and sharing what lessons they're learning. I think it's really good that it's going to support more consistent delivery of the programs over time within the department.
NDP
Rachel Blaney NDP North Island—Powell River, BC
That's perfect. Those are all my questions. Thank you.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
Thank you very much.
We'll now go to Mr. Genuis and then over to Mr. Sousa.
October 29th, 2024 / 11:50 a.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Thank you very much, Chair.
It's been really interesting seeing the various areas of spending within this audit. There is one thing I had asked other officials about, and I wonder if you have some context on this. There are multiple entries of American universities that are funded through this. I tried to get some clarity, and couldn't, around why we are funding foreign institutions.
I wonder if you have a comment on that, and then, just in general, on whether grants and contributions are required to be spent or not be spent on things that are actually in Canada, or whether there are a lot of different areas of spending on items that are not obviously related to Canada.
Director General, Chief Audit and Evaluation Executive, Department of the Environment
With respect to the first question, I believe the documentation will be provided to the committee in the coming days. It's just in the approval process right now.
In terms of funding institutions outside of Canada, it depends on the terms and conditions of the program these funds are coming from. We do have some international obligations with international climate financing, and we also have some obligations with respect to contribution funding to organizations such as the World Meteorological Organization. There are some terms and conditions on programs that you can fund outside of Canada.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Is there an expectation that other states would fund those activities if they're happening outside of Canada, or is that considered normal?
I was surprised to see this funding for these other institutions. Of course we're affected by things that happen elsewhere, but other countries are affected by things that happen here, and generally you'd expect this kind of research monitoring to happen with a focus on your own country, surely.
Director General, Chief Audit and Evaluation Executive, Department of the Environment
Yes, as I mentioned, it would be part of the terms and conditions of the program where the funding is going.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Okay. I guess that's more of a policy question.
Director General, Chief Audit and Evaluation Executive, Department of the Environment
Yes, that's it exactly.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
You're giving me the auditor answer, which depends on whoever it's posed to. Fair enough. We have asked these policy questions and we will continue to ask them.
I wonder if you can compare your analysis of the things happening at the environment department and other departments. We had an audit here recently of some very concerning things that have happened at Global Affairs. By the way, we tried to get the minister to come in on that, but Minister Joly has not made herself available to this committee on various matters we've asked her to come for.
There have been issues at Global Affairs. There have been issues at the environment department. How would you compare what you're finding in this department to some of those other audits and what exists at other departments?
Director General, Chief Audit and Evaluation Executive, Department of the Environment
When we undertook this audit, the first step that a team would normally take would be to look at other types of grants and contribution audits that have been done across the government. We did notice that there were a few in certain departments, such as Global Affairs. What we learned from those was where the risks were so that we could strengthen our internal audit programs and strengthen the work that we're going to do in our department.
I would not be able to comment on the actual findings of audits of other departments, but what I can say is that we do take that information into account when we're doing our work.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Are you making comparisons between things that are happening at certain departments, such as whether you're doing better or worse in this than that other department is?
Director General, Chief Audit and Evaluation Executive, Department of the Environment
We have a network of chief audit executives, and we get together on a regular basis with the Office of the Comptroller General to share practices and findings. However, as I said, we are learning from the work others are doing, and we are making sure we include those types of risk in our assessments when we develop our audit programs.