Thank you.
Evidence of meeting #149 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was program.
A video is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #149 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was program.
A video is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. MacDonald, for joining us today and for the testimony you provided.
You've talked about priorities and you've talked about the government having certain priorities and those priorities translating into different streams or different programs. Then those programs naturally are designed with an outcome in mind. Then there's allocation of funds to them. Is that a fair statement to say at a very high level?
Can you talk about the top three or four priorities for ECCC?
Director General, Chief Audit and Evaluation Executive, Department of the Environment
Do you mean in terms of our department's priorities?
Director General, Chief Audit and Evaluation Executive, Department of the Environment
One would be climate change. The other one would be pollution. Then it would be predicting the weather.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
Okay. Let's talk about about pollution. How much of that fund was allocated to pollution?
Director General, Chief Audit and Evaluation Executive, Department of the Environment
I don't have that answer with me, but I can get it.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
Can you provide that answer? If I want to go back and look at the number of projects that were granted, whether they got a grant or loans, under each one of those priorities, that would be really appreciated.
I understand the process you went through and the audit that was done. The audit process was focused on understanding how they can bring synergy, going from a decentralized system to a centralized system, supported by sufficient resources with the skill sets that are needed to be able to manage all of this. I got that. I also understand that there were a number of recommendations made and that you're working on them.
What took me aback a bit, when you were asked about the outcome, was that you said you did not look at the outcome. Did you did not look at the outcome because it was not part of the mandate of the audit, or is there is a separate audit that needs to be processed to look at the outcome?
I ask that question mainly because, at the end of the day, regardless of the priority and regardless of the program, there must be an outcome by which we could measure how successful we are. In the case of pollution, I would assume the reduction of the greenhouse gas emissions would be something we would want to measure as an outcome. Can you comment on that?
Director General, Chief Audit and Evaluation Executive, Department of the Environment
Yes. In terms of outcomes, there are multiple ways the department can talk about the outcomes it's achieving, and there are also multiple ways this could be audited. The Office of the Auditor General and the commissioner of the environment and sustainable development have undertaken 19 audits of our department over the last three years. They are consistently looking at us in terms of what we're doing and how we're doing it to achieve our mandate.
Also, when you look at our evaluation function, we look at programs individually to satisfy our financial administration requirements to provide evaluation advice on those.
Also, internally in the department, they have a departmental results framework. They also have performance measures, and they report annually through their departmental results report.
There are multiple ways that the department can communicate the results, then, but the focus of this audit was looking at the foundation of how we're delivering those programs. As well, we didn't look at just one; we looked across all program branches and all the programs to make sure we had the right systems in place to effectively deliver them.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
Thank you, sir.
If I want to look at the outcome of the project and the progress made today, I should look at the results reported by each one of those streams and at the projects and the aggregate of what the target was and what's been achieved. As an auditor, have you had a chance to look at that interim report or progress report, and can you tell me whether we are on track, we are ahead or we are behind?
Director General, Chief Audit and Evaluation Executive, Department of the Environment
I can only speak based on the work I have performed in the department, and we're not tracking that, per se. You can find other reports to find that information, and the Auditor General has done a good job over the last few years to report on our progress.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
I have about 45 seconds. Where would I go specifically to get that result?
Director General, Chief Audit and Evaluation Executive, Department of the Environment
You can look on our website. There are evaluation reports. There is also the departmental results framework. They're putting the departmental results report on there, and you can get that type of information there.
I may be missing some things, so I'll have to get back to you after talking to department officials.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
Just to close, the focus of your audit was more on the financial side and the management of the process rather than on determining whether the outcome has met the objective of the process. Okay. Thank you very much.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
For funds that are sent internationally, does the public have any way of knowing how the funds are being used to achieve transition objectives and ensure that no organization or company is using those funds to do inappropriate things?
Director General, Chief Audit and Evaluation Executive, Department of the Environment
That's a question I would probably take back to the department and ask of department officials in order to get a proper response.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Thank you.
I want to talk some more about the challenge around growth. I understand that managing growth is not easy. However, I'm concerned about problems with management, processes and documentation not only in your department, but in a number of other departments as well.
I'm sure Quebeckers and Canadians who are keeping tabs on this issue are as concerned as I am right now, especially since, as I said, it seems to be quite common. It looks like Canada was created yesterday and we have to start from scratch. It's absolutely incredible.
What do we need to do to bring order to this chaos? I'm talking about your department, Environment and Climate Change Canada. How long will it take to be sure that funds, taxes and taxpayers' money are being used effectively and efficiently?
Director General, Chief Audit and Evaluation Executive, Department of the Environment
I believe the implementation of the management action plan will address a lot of these issues, and there are timelines associated with the implementation of these action plans.
NDP
Rachel Blaney NDP North Island—Powell River, BC
I have a couple of questions. Again, thank you for being here. I've learned a lot today.
One of the things I want to come back to is that many indigenous applicants were labelled medium or high risk. With regard to that review process, there was a clear identification that there wasn't really any paperwork providing a meaningful rationale for it. I appreciate that they were reviewed and that there's an ongoing process in place to address that issue, but what does that mean for the people who currently have an agreement?
When that issue was identified, was anything done with the current agreements? We know the oversight requirements increase.
There are a lot of additional administration costs for recipients when they are rated this way. If there's nothing saying why they were rated this way, what happens in your process to provide feedback about what should happen with those current agreements that have not been properly dealt with?
Director General, Chief Audit and Evaluation Executive, Department of the Environment
There are two points I would make. We're going to track the implementation of the action plan through the follow-up process we have in place, but your question goes beyond that. What is happening, from the program manager perspective and from the departmental perspective of how we are going to fix some of these issues if they have led to inconsistent practices across multiple recipients, is a good question that I can bring back to the centre of expertise for grants and contributions—
Rachel Blaney NDP North Island—Powell River, BC
Thank you for that, because I'd hate to think that this was found out and then the people in those contracts are not going to get the support they deserve with the system.
Could I get clarity on another thing? I know this audit was done prior to that one. When was the last one done?
