Evidence of meeting #149 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was program.
A video is available from Parliament.
Director General, Chief Audit and Evaluation Executive, Department of the Environment
The last audit of grants and contributions that looked beyond more than one program was in 2019.
Rachel Blaney NDP North Island—Powell River, BC
Okay. Are there any plans to have it be a more normal thing or a more frequent activity, or are there any discussions about what that might look like?
Director General, Chief Audit and Evaluation Executive, Department of the Environment
The evaluation plan will do evaluations of individual programs. We're just about to launch our current process for the development of our 2025-2030 plan. Through the consultations and through our risk assessment, we will look into whether there are any further risks that we need to explore with respect to grants and contributions. We would then consider those in the development of our plan.
NDP
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
Thank you very much.
Mr. MacDonald, before we send you on your way, if you don't mind, I have a couple of quick questions myself.
The recommendation on page 3 talks about—and my colleague spoke about it as well—strengthening controls over conflict of interest. I think you kind of answered it in saying that the controls were not being followed properly. Were you able to identify issues of conflict of interest that triggered this note in the report, or was there just a lack of control around it?
Director General, Chief Audit and Evaluation Executive, Department of the Environment
There are two aspects. There's the values and ethics code for public servants that we all have to follow and that we have to sign every year, attesting that we're going to adhere to the values and ethics code for public servants. However, also, when you're a program manager in the grants and contributions, before you make decisions, you should really reflect on whether you're in a conflict-of-interest position.
It's not necessarily that we found anything, but it's just a really good practice that people making decisions—
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
You said, “it's not necessarily”. Did you find any, or were you not looking...?
Director General, Chief Audit and Evaluation Executive, Department of the Environment
No, we did not find any instances of conflict of interest, but we're saying that further strengthening of the controls is a good practice.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
Okay, I understand. It's not well written—I'm going to be critical—or well explained, I guess, in the report.
You didn't do a value-for-money audit. That's supposed to be part of the original process. Did you identify any grants that were not eligible, or was that again not part of the scope of the audit?
Director General, Chief Audit and Evaluation Executive, Department of the Environment
For the 100 files that we looked at, everything was eligible under the terms and conditions.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
Wonderful. That's all I had.
Mr. MacDonald, thank you very much. We'll send you on your way.
Colleagues, we'll suspend very briefly. Then I'll come back and go over some of the schedule issues for everyone.
Thanks.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
We are back in session, everyone.
Very quickly—yes, I'll get to you, Mrs. Kusie—I just want to go over what's coming up in the next month. There could be a couple of changes, depending on ministers' availability.
On November 5, we have Minister Joly for the first hour—well, it will probably take an hour and 10 minutes to get through.
For the second hour, we're trying to get Minister Hajdu on indigenous procurement. We are still going back and forth in confirming availability. It may be November 5 for her, or it may be November 19. We will fit in when she's available, so if she agrees, on November 5 it will be Minister Joly and Minister Hajdu. November 7 is a full day. We have, I think, five witnesses on indigenous procurement.
For the break week, we have three meetings set.... No, there will be nothing on the break week.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
Yeah, I know.
November 19 I'm holding open right now for Minister Hajdu if she cannot do November 5. If she does November 5, then hopefully we will slot her in there. November 21 is the second Canada Post study. This is the one on the bilingual issue with the post offices. November 26 is the PBO.
Now, on November 5, if Minister Hajdu is not available, we will finish off, hopefully, the recommendations of the Canada Post rural study. If Minister Hajdu shows up on November 5, then Canada Post will go back to November 19.
Now, I do have one issue, and then we'll get to Mrs. Kusie and then Mr. Sousa, unless there's a question on the schedule.
An issue came up on a motion, and I'm going to ask the committee if we can agree to have them in. They're the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner and the procurement ombud. They both indicated.... The procurement ombud has mentioned before an issue around resources. Now the integrity commissioner has brought up an issue around resources, and I'm looking for agreement to bring them both in for an hour to talk about that.
They're both obviously very important to our committee because they are part of the OGGO world, especially the integrity commissioner, because she is new. However, we've also just passed Bill C-290 on whistle-blowers. The integrity commissioner commented that she doesn't have the resources to do her mandate, and we already have a very, very weak whistle-blowing regime in Canada, so I'd like to hear from her about that. Then the procurement ombud made a comment to the effect that he's just not able to do what is necessary on the existing budget.
Therefore, somewhere in there—not on Remembrance Day, I promise you—if we're fine with that, we'll slot them both in for an hour.
Liberal
Charles Sousa Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
Yes, it's on the schedule.
We've had this discussion many times in the past. I know the will of the majority of the committee has spoken on a number of occasions. I think it's necessary. I want to move forward, and I want to reinforce....
Rachel, this is the first time that you're part of the committee, but I just want to be able to reiterate some of the concerns that the committee has had.
I'd like to move a motion with regard to it, and it reads as follows—
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
Mr. Sousa, keep it to the schedule. There are other people in front of you. Keep it on point.
Liberal
Charles Sousa Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
It's about scheduling. This is all about scheduling.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
Okay. This was just about about the schedule that I've put forward. There was someone else in front of you. I should have gone to her first if you want to do a motion.
What is the issue on the schedule?
Liberal
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
No, I'm not asking about the motion. I'm asking about your issue—
Liberal
Charles Sousa Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
No, the motion makes it very clear what the issue is with regard to scheduling, and it's—
