Government Operations Committee on April 26th, 2022

[Annie Boudreau]

I can start with the strategic review. The strategic review was announced in budget 2022. We are at the planning stage of it. You have seen in the document they're talking about real property, they're talking about travel being more efficient, and—as indicated—we're going to provide an update in budget 2023.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you very much.

Unfortunately, Ms. Tattersall, you've again drawn the card right when the time is up. If you do have anything to add to that, please provide that in writing. It's greatly appreciated.

We'll now go to Mr. Paul-Hus for five minutes.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Boudreau, I'd like to come back to the question I asked the minister about the famous $15 billion for National Defence. The minister did give me an answer, but the Parliamentary Budget Officer, who is much more familiar with the government's budget cycle than I am, says that there's a problem, but that the problem isn't explained.

Could this simply be an error in handling the numbers that just went unnoticed?

The Parliamentary Budget Officer finds this inexplicable, so imagine what it is for us.

[Annie Boudreau]

I will continue by rounding out the answer of the Treasury Board President.

The Parliamentary Budget Officer mentioned that there was a $23 billion gap. Of that $23 billion gap, the 2022 budget has set aside an additional $8 billion for National Defence. That leaves $15 billion. The $15 billion is what you see in the federal budget compared to the estimates and the departmental plan for National Defence.

In fact, that $15 billion hasn't yet been approved by the Treasury Board. Once these amounts are approved by the Treasury Board, they will be included in supplementary estimates (A), (B) or (C). That is why there is a gap. There is a gap because the Treasury Board hasn't yet given its approval.

Until the expenditures are approved, we cannot present them to you for review.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Why, then, would someone like the Parliamentary Budget Officer flag such an issue? He must be familiar with the procedure. He must know how things are done.

[Annie Boudreau]

I can't speak for the Parliamentary Budget Officer.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Let's talk about human resources. Earlier, you mentioned the return to work of vaccinated and unvaccinated public servants. The last time we met, before the holidays, if I'm not mistaken, I asked about the return to work of public servants. In other words, where did things stand when it came to employees going back to work?

I know you said that each director would be managing the return to work of their employees as they saw fit, but have things changed since then?

[Marie-Chantal Girard]

You have a good memory.

Yes, things have changed. Some employees are back at work. The last time we spoke, we planned on taking a cautious approach. When we put out our communications, which I and my counterpart the deputy health minister co‑signed, we made it clear that the return to work would be gradual. That proved to be a smart decision since there was another wave. Being cautious was the right thing to do so as not to send employees back to work when it wasn't appropriate. That's the approach we took.

The government's guidance has since been updated. Every department has a toolkit with directives and policies that continue to change as needed. At this stage, we are looking to do some experimenting, because we know we aren't the only employer in this boat.

Various options are available, and we will be trying out different models leading up to the summer. The idea is to figure out which models work best for which types of organizations and workflows, depending on the specific mandates and functions of each department. That will help us identify best practices and build the momentum to move forward.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

The risks associated with COVID‑19 aside, work productivity and efficiency has been an issue. Over the past two years, we have seen tremendous problems on that front. Take the processing of immigration and passport applications, for example. Are those issues a direct result of employees working from home, or are they due to the fact that the process for handling those types of applications is lengthier and more complicated?

[Marie-Chantal Girard]

I wouldn't attribute the problems to that. Pandemic aside, I'm sure you would agree that some exceptional circumstances have arisen, and they have created challenges for the public service, the likes of which we haven't seen in a very long time. Productivity is a key consideration when we evaluate the different models, and a leading principle. It comes down to whether Canadians are being well served and organizations are able to fulfill their mandates.

Yes, health and safety are still important considerations, but, I assure you, so is productivity.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

All right.

Before the holidays, cybersecurity was an issue. In light of the current conflict, are we seeing even more attacks from Russia?

[Marie-Chantal Girard]

I'm going to ask my colleague Mr. Wagner to speak to cybersecurity.

[Paul Wagner]

Good afternoon, Mr. Paul‑Hus. I remember your question quite well.

We remain on the alert and continue to enhance system security. We work very closely with the Canadian Centre for Cyber Security and Shared Services Canada. All of the senior leadership is on high alert. Like me, you've seen the statistics. I can tell you that we continue to ensure the security and integrity of the Government of Canada's infrastructure.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Mr. Wagner.

Now we'll go to Mr. Kusmierczyk for five minutes.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My colleague from Courtenay—Alberni raised some really great questions about the strategic policy review. I wanted to pick up the thread of that conversation.

Now as I understand it, the review has two different streams. I'm just wondering if you can talk about the two different streams and what the focus is of each of them. Maybe give us an example of some of the things that we're going to be looking at and assessing under both streams.

[Annie Boudreau]

Thank you.

Effectively we have two streams under budget 2022. The first stream was in fact included in Minister Fortier's mandate letter. It was about a comprehensive review of policy programs of the government. The first stream will be looking at big programs and their impact in terms of net-zero reduction, quality of life and things like that. It will be continuous program reviews. It's not going to be done only one time. We want to do it year after year. That's stream number one, which was included in budget 2022.

Stream number two is about being smaller. It is about being more efficient and more effective. This is where we see looking at property, travel and how we do business. With stream number two there is a commitment to come back in budget 2023 with more information.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

The first stream is reviewing the programs to see how they align with the government's priorities and whether they're meeting those objectives and those targets.

[Annie Boudreau]

That is correct.

We will use a quality of life framework to assess that. It's also part of our minister's mandate letter. We'll use that framework to assess programs and make sure that we are delivering on priorities for Canadians.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Departments do reviews all the time, as individual departments, ministries and whatnot. How does this strategic policy differ from what usually takes place at the different department levels?

[Annie Boudreau]

We want to take a horizontal view.

I'll give you an example. If we look at a student program, we know we can have a student program under ESDC, under Indigenous Services Canada and other programs. We're going to look at the line of business basically, do a horizontal review and we'll be able to provide feedback on governance, on programs, on areas to improve and things like that.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

That's actually a really good point because when you look at, for example, the programs out there to support young people, you're talking about 10 different ministries that have responsibility for supporting our young people. This strategic policy review is going to sort of tie those different ministries together.

Okay, that's terrific to hear.

Is there an amount of funding that's expected to be saved because of this policy review? Is that number driving this review process or is that just an estimation that's separate from what the real goal is?

[Annie Boudreau]

Under stream one, as indicated in budget 2022, it's really to look at the programs to make sure we are efficient. There is no money attached, as we have read and we have seen in budget 2022.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

There is no financial goal that's attached.

[Annie Boudreau]

Not that I'm aware of.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Not that you're aware of—okay. That's terrific.

You touched very briefly upon remote work or virtual work and how that might fit into a strategic policy review to see how we can find efficiencies and make government more effective. Can you maybe talk about how remote work or a hybrid model fits into a strategic policy review? Again, knowing that the review is just beginning, how could that conversation fit into a strategic policy review?