Government Operations Committee on April 26th, 2022

[The Chair (Mr. Robert Kitchen (Souris—Moose Mountain, CPC)), Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 15 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates.

Today, we'll be hearing from the President of the Treasury Board and officials regarding the main estimates 2022-23 and the departmental plans.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the House order of November 25, 2021. Members are attending in person in the room, as well as remotely using the Zoom application.

Regarding the speaking list, the committee clerk and I will do the best we can to maintain a consolidated order of speaking for all members, whether participating virtually or in person. I'd like to take this opportunity to remind all participants to this meeting that screenshots or taking photos of your screen is not permitted.

Given the ongoing pandemic situation, and in light of the recommendations from public health authorities as well as the directive of the Board of Internal Economy on October 19, 2021, to remain healthy and safe, the following is recommended for all those attending the meeting in person. Anyone with symptoms should participate by Zoom, and not attend the meeting in person. Everyone must maintain two-metre physical distancing, whether seated or standing.

Everyone must wear a non-medical mask when circulating in the room. It is recommended in the strongest possible terms that members wear their masks at all times, including when seated. Non-medical masks, which provide better clarity over cloth masks, are available in the room. Everyone present must maintain proper hand hygiene by using the hand sanitizer at the room entrance. Committee rooms are cleaned before and after each meeting. To maintain this, everyone is encouraged to clean surfaces, such as their desk, their chair and their microphone with the provided disinfectant wipes when vacating or taking a seat. As the chair, I will be enforcing these measures for the duration of the meeting, and I thank members in advance for their co-operation.

I'd like to welcome the President of the Treasury Board, Minister Fortier, and her colleagues.

I invite her to make her opening statement.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, President of the Treasury Board]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for having me again, this time to discuss the main estimates for the 2022-23 fiscal year, and the departmental plan for the Treasury Board Secretariat for the same period.

Today, I am accompanied in person and virtually by the following Treasury Board Secretariat officials: Annie Boudreau, assistant secretary, expenditure management sector; Karen Cahill, assistant secretary and chief financial officer; Marie‑Chantal Girard, assistant deputy minister, employee relations and total compensation; Monia Lahaie, assistant comptroller general, financial management sector; Samantha Tattersall, assistant comptroller general, acquired services and assets sector; and Paul Wagner, assistant deputy minister, strategy and transformation.

Mr. Chair, I would like to start by recognizing the excellent work done by these officials. I'm most grateful for all their efforts.

The 2022-23 main estimates seek funding to address Canada's key priorities. They include infrastructure investments, benefits for seniors and students, transfers to the provinces and territories for health care and child care, and action to reduce emissions and green our economy.

The government is also seeking the necessary investments to continue protecting and supporting Canadians through the COVID-19 pandemic, and to foster economic recovery.

The main estimates contain information on planned budget expenditures totalling $397.6 billion, which will allow 126 organizations to provide programs and services to Canadians. This amount will be allocated through voted expenditures of $190.3 billion as well as $207.3 billion worth of statutory spending, which is already authorized under current laws.

As always, details about each organization's work can be found in the departmental plans. The plans were tabled the day after the main estimates, supporting parliamentary scrutiny.

The Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat is seeking $7.8 billion in funding in these main estimates, and $4.3 billion is broken down as follows: $750 million for government contingencies, $152 million for government-wide initiatives, $2.1 billion for operating and $750 million for capital budget carry-forward, and $600 million for paylist expenditures.

These central votes support Treasury Board in its role as the expenditure manager, employer and general manager for the Government of Canada.

There are also funds totalling $3.2 billion for payments to pension, benefit and insurance plans, which include employer contributions for employment insurance, wage loss insurance and life insurance. The remaining $320 million will be used for the department's operations and activities.

Before closing, Mr. Chair, allow me to touch briefly on some of my department's objectives and priorities. In its spending oversight, TBS is beginning an ongoing strategic policy review to ensure that programs are effective on challenges like climate change, the pandemic and growing the economy. It will also adapt government to our postpandemic reality, such as digitization.

I want to be clear: The review is about smarter government, not smaller government.

TBS will also work with Environment and Climate Change Canada to ensure that climate considerations are integrated throughout the government's decision-making.

In its role as employer, TBS will continue to ensure that Canadians can receive services in both official languages. We'll work to bolster our role through Bill C-13, an act for the substantive equality of Canada's official languages, which will strengthen our monitoring, auditing and evaluation.

We'll also begin a review of how to best protect the courageous whistle-blowers who disclose serious wrongdoing within government.

As to the Treasury Board Secretariat's administrative leadership role within government, it will continue to improve Canadians' digital experience when they access government services. The secretariat will work with its governmental partners to help departments and agencies attain the required minimum of at least 5% of the value of federal contracts being awarded to indigenous communities.

Moreover, the secretariat will work with departments and agencies towards fulfilling the government's commitment to purchasing completely clean electricity wherever possible by the end of 2022, electrifying the federal fleet of light vehicles by 2030, and reducing waste production and water consumption.

In its people management role, TBS will bring forward a plan for the future of work in the public service. It will also support departments in removing barriers for public servants with disabilities, and in implementing plans outlined in their responses to the call to action on anti-racism, equity and inclusion in the public service.

Finally, in its regulatory oversight role, TBS will continue to lead efforts to ensure that regulations maintain high health and safety standards while improving the competitiveness of Canadian businesses. A key measure is Bill S-6, the second annual regulatory modernization bill. This legislation will reduce administrative burden for businesses, facilitate digital interactions with government and simplify regulatory processes. Bill S-6 will support our economic recovery by helping businesses do what they do best and by making it easier for Canadians to get things done.

Mr. Chair, these priorities set out in the Treasury Board Secretariat's departmental plan and the investments requested in the main estimates reflect our efforts to meet the evolving needs of Canadians.

With these documents, the government continues to provide information in an open, transparent and responsible matter so that parliamentarians and Canadians have a clear idea of the way the government intends to invest money for Canadians and for Canada.

Again, I would like to thank the committee for its work and the valuable role you play in the estimates and parliamentary supply process.

In closing, thank you again for the invitation. My officials and I would be pleased to answer your questions at this time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Minister, for your presentation, and thank you to the witnesses you brought with you. We greatly appreciate seeing you here again in person.

We'll now go to our first round of questioning.

Mr. McCauley, we will start with you for six minutes.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Thanks, Mr. Chair, Minister and colleagues. Welcome back.

I want to start with whistle-blowers. In 2017 this committee put in a unanimous report that was widely lauded, that was unanimously lauded, by the Canadian whistle-blower community. It's been five years. We've seen nothing. When will we actually see the recommendations from this committee brought into legislation?

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. McCauley.

Our government believes that those who disclose serious wrongdoing must be protected, and the law provides a secure and confidential process for—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

When can we see legislation to protect whistle-blowers?

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

I understand. I would like to set the stage by the fact that the government is working very hard. Budget 2022 funded a review of the act, which we will expect very soon, later this year.

Also, I just want to thank you for the work you've done, as you tabled a report with 15 recommendations. I would like to hear what you think we should be looking at going forward, as we will be reviewing this later this year.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

There are a couple of things, Minister. You mentioned the law. Canada has the weakest whistle-blower laws in the OECD. For five years the government has sat on its hands and done nothing.

Recently there was a situation where whistle-blowers were actually exposed. This sums up the Canadian whistle-blower experience. Two whistle-blowers with the CRA were actually outed by the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner. The very gentleman who is supposed to protect whistle-blowers outed whistle-blowers.

What is going to be done about that? Why has it been five years with no legislation?

You asked me what my recommendations are. This committee put through very specific items to put in. The government could bring them in in a week. Why has this not been done? Why is the very person charged with protecting whistle-blowers exposing whistle-blowers? What is the government going to do to protect those specific whistle-blowers?

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you, again.

I'll start with the first mention about the CRA whistle-blowers at the Federal Court. We know that the Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada is an independent agent of Parliament, and it's mandated to allow anyone to disclose wrongdoing in the federal public sector confidentially and safely.

I have been advised that this information—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

That man exposed—

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

—has been removed by the Federal Court.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

—whistle-blowers. The very person meant to protect whistle-blowers exposed them. They have no protection for five years.

I appreciate that you want to do a review. The review is going to spend $2 million or $3 million over five years, which will mean a 10-year gap between this committee's widely lauded recommendations and perhaps a chance to even start looking at legislation.

Why don't we just simply put in the legislation recommended by...unanimously, and at that time it was a Liberal majority committee?

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you, again, for that information.

As you know, I've been mandated to review the whistle-blower act, and we will be reviewing this later this year. As you saw in budget 2022, we have put forward some money to do this exercise.

Maybe Marie-Chantal wants to add where we are at this point.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

No offence, but I don't want to hear from Ms. Girard, because she does not have the ability to put forward the legislation.

Do you believe it's acceptable for a 10-year gap between this committee's recommendation and a start to even look at legislation? That will be two governments from now, two Parliaments from now. People are exposed.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Again, I know that the committee did hard work in 2017 and had 15 recommendations. We will take that into account and also start the work, as I just mentioned. We have an important investment in budget 2022 to raise this and review the act.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I will just state for the record that I appreciate your good intentions, but we know the path to a certain area is paved with good intentions. I don't believe it's good enough for whistle-blowers. I hope you will reconsider.

Will you commit publicly to those whistle-blowers outed by our own government that they will be protected from retribution from the CRA and from the government for exposing corruption and wrongdoing within the CRA?

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Again, I would like—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

These brave whistle-blowers, as you mentioned, deserve our protection. Will you guarantee that they'll be protected from retribution?

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Well, it is our government's intention, and we believe that those who disclose serious wrongdoing—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

These people's lives are on the line. Will they be protected?

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

—must be protected. As I said earlier, we are going to be reviewing this later this year, and we are investing in this review.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Minister, these are whistle-blowers. Will they be protected?

Our government, the Government of Canada outed them. Will they be protected? They deserve that.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

We're continuing to make sure that those who disclose serious wrongdoing must be protected, so that is an objective. Also, our government has strengthened training, monitoring, reporting and policies in the workplace to make sure this is taken into consideration.

I know the officials might want to go into more details, maybe in the next hour. I know you have other questions.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I'm just going to go on the record that I don't believe that's good enough. I don't believe the action taken in the five years is anywhere near adequate. We are still, when you talk to the whistle-blower community, the weakest in the OECD. Corrupt dictatorships have stronger whistle-blower protection than Canada. I think we need to do better.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

This is the government's priority. It's in my mandate letter and we will continue to work on this closely.