Government Operations Committee on Oct. 31st, 2024

[Jody Anderson]

Thank you for the question, Mrs. Vignola.

You're absolutely right. It is a colonial and very paternalistic approach that is currently being taken. When our treaties were signed, it was not the understanding of our nation to move forward with limitations on economic participation when we already had an existing economy and a way of thriving in our economies.

I think that consultation is extremely important in these cases. Shannin has talked about the 107 calls to action. The fiscal management and the FMA have what's called a RoadMap and together we have come together to form the indigenous economic council, which takes into consideration the perspectives and the priorities of our nations right across Canada, including the rights holders, so that we can move forward on our own.

Mr. Calla alluded to the fact that the FMA is the most successful sectoral governance piece in Canadian history. This has to do with the fact that it is truly indigenous-led. We have been able to use the tools that we have come up with to help our nations when they ask for help and assistance. We believe that this is the way. We believe that having indigenous-led institutions and the ability to determine our own fate are very important.

As nations, you're absolutely right. I'll be clear, as a first nations woman, that it's not for me to decide who is Métis or Inuit. We also consult with our other indigenous groups to ensure that how we are progressing is within the acceptable means that they deem as well.

It's about collaboration—you are absolutely right—but it's also about getting out of the way and allowing us to continue forward, so that we can thrive once again.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Wonderful.

We'll go to Mr. Johns, please.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you, again. I really appreciate your powerful testimony today.

As New Democrats, we've always been focused on removing systemic biases from the procurement process. I'd like to hear a bit more about that.

Also, you talked about the government ghosting you, how you haven't had a response from ISC and just how shameful that is, given the government's commitment. They say that indigenous peoples are their top priority.

Do you feel that is happening right now in terms a nation-to-nation relationship?

Maybe you could speak about how important it is for all departments to have a reconciliation lens. I don't believe that it should just be ISC. I think CIRNA has a role to play. This is rights and reconciliation. This is their commitment on UNDRIP for free, prior and informed consent and self-determination.

Do you believe that the government should have a cross-government approach in terms of supporting the 5% target as well?

It should be every department taking that approach. I'm flabbergasted and humiliated, too, that the government hasn't responded to your requests.

Maybe you could speak a little bit about that.

[Shannin Metatawabin]

It was in 2017, I think, when we had a big gathering where we identified all the barriers. One of them was that the government departments had more than 200 programs, collectively, through the federal, provincial and municipal governments, that targeted indigenous economic development, but nobody was aligned on a common strategy. The regional development agencies used to align on indigenous strategy, but they're all in their own regions doing their own thing.

I think that we're recreating the wheel way too much.

We have an opportunity to work with all these organizations that are here today. You have a road map strategy from First Nations Financial Management Board and a national indigenous economic strategy. You have an economic council to work with. You have the tools necessary to align government departments to educate themselves.

The NIES has a call to prosperity called an indigenous economic reconciliation action plan.

For corporate and for government, do your own mini-IBA—impact benefit agreement—on your hiring, your awareness and your employment. Post those, so that everybody sees them and so everybody knows how serious you are about making sure that indigenous people are participating.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

To add to that, we're talking a lot of money when it comes to government procurement: $20 billion a year. The government had an auto theft summit. I'm not saying that auto theft isn't an important issue, but this is clearly a much bigger opportunity and an issue as well because of the failure of government to move at the pace that it needs to. Do you believe that all departments should be coming together, have a summit and move rapidly to respond to your needs? Go ahead, Ms. Anderson.

[Jody Anderson]

I believe there are some departments under this federal government that approach reconciliation much more efficiently and genuinely than others, and there are some great practices. I will make mention of ADM Keith Conn and his department as an example of asking what the priorities should be from the community and not coming in, and telling, and rolling out programs through the eyes or lens of the government. They are truly seeking feedback and doing the consultation and hard work, no matter how hard that seems, to ensure that they have the understanding and the blessing of the rights holders that these programs will often impact.

When I'm speaking to the regional offices and folks who have the decision-making authority, I often ask, “Who has been to my community of Couchiching First Nation?” More often than not, there are no hands that go up. My plea to them is, “Please understand, when you are making decisions in your position, you are impacting my family and my community without having known,” and that is still a paternalistic approach that has not necessarily been given the blessing of our community. That consultation piece is absolutely critical to the success of reconciliation in this country.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

We heard a lot today about the concerns—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm sorry, but just ask a quick one, Mr. Johns, please.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

—about the Botler situation that happened with Dalian. Ritika Dutt said she fears that Dalian's procurement policies are “another example of monetization and theft using the trauma of marginalized communities”. Can you talk about how much harm that caused? I believe it's fraud that they hired.... Botler didn't know that they were being used like that, and they were totally opposed to being used as a set-aside because they knew that they didn't qualify, so they were calling it out. They were coming forward. Can you talk about how much harm that created, in terms of capacity-building as well, for companies?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I apologize, and I know it's difficult, but please give a brief response if you're able to.

[Jody Anderson]

I would go back to the building of capacity and financial literacy in our nations, having the ability to spot these illegitimate companies and asks, and closing these loopholes right from the onset.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you.

Mrs. Kusie, go ahead, please.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you very much to all of our witnesses for being here.

My name is Stephanie Kusie. I'm the member of Parliament for Calgary Midnapore, which is on the land of Treaty No. 7 as well as Métis Region 3. Meegwetch for your presence here today.

I want to continue on the stream of my colleague's previous questions around procurement outside the halls of power. We see often that a lot of the chosen procurement vendors are from the national capital region, and, as a member of parliament who comes from the west, I would definitely like to see procurement from all communities across Canada—in particular for me the west, and with that I would add the north. In your opinions, please, Ms. Anderson and Mr. Metatawabin, what policies are needed to ensure that all regions are included in procurement procedures?

[Jody Anderson]

I believe this is very important to not just say we need contractors from the NCR—the national capital region—but also from right across Canada. When we look at a geographic scope, in terms of thinking outside of our bubble here in Ottawa, that is welcomed and encouraged by all contractors to bid on. I know there has been tremendous success for a lot of the communities or indigenous businesses and companies in the province of Alberta, particularly as it relates to oil and gas, which have done quite well and have been able to thrive, but this is outside of the scope of federal procurement. Oftentimes, there's a much easier win and less red tape, if you will, than coming through federal procurement processes and checkboxes.

I would encourage that we certainly look outside of the NCR. I'm not familiar with all of the clauses in the bonding or procurement policies, but I would hope that it is encouraged greatly.

[Shannin Metatawabin]

I would just add that we have an opportunity right now. The light is shining on federal procurement. You can lead by example because there are opportunities out there for indigenous people in provincial, municipal and in corporate Canada. There's probably more procurement available in the corporate sector than even in the federal department, but we have to set the process right.

The First Nations Procurement Organization is here to work with you to make sure that we have the right policies, processes and tools. We are advocating. We have the right targets and a way to report it out to Canadians. We have this ability. We just need to be worked with.

Thank you.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you both.

Madam Anderson, you touched upon the oil sands. I'm very proud to come from Alberta and I believe that natural resource companies in Alberta work with first nations companies because they know it's good business and they are driven by results.

In your opinion, please, Ms. Anderson and Mr. Metatawabin, what can we learn from private sector examples, such as those that are occurring in Alberta?

[Shannin Metatawabin]

I used to work for De Beers. It was implementing an impact benefit agreement. Maybe it wasn't done the best, but we did recognize that you have to work with a community well in advance to build the capacity of that nation. You have to work with them on developing businesses that would meet the objectives of that business and make sure that you're building the capacity of the people, so that they can implement the business opportunities.

That's really where I think we can gain the best practices of those major projects, with how they worked up communities in order for them to have opportunities at that business and employ their people. There are great examples out there and we can just put those to work.

Thank you.

[Jody Anderson]

Thank you very much for the question.

I, too, believe that this is an example of good business right across the country. I would like to see a point where the set-aside is no longer needed and our businesses are being brought forward as primes because we do good business, are quite capable and have the ability to show that we can execute these contracts flawlessly.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you both.

Mr. Daniels and Mr. Calla, I'm familiar that you have provided some advice and counsel to our leader, Pierre Poilievre, regarding economic reconciliation.

Can you please share with the committee why you believe the natural resources and the natural resource sector are so important for economic reconciliation?

[Harold Calla]

Ernie, if you don't mind, I'll go first.

As you may or may not recall, I'm a member of the board of the Trans Mountain pipeline. I look at the challenges that particular project faced with the private sector. One of the things that has to be improved in this country is getting to the final investment decision more quickly. The regulatory framework has to be completely revised. It has to be done with indigenous inclusion. That's the first thing that has to happen or we're not going to have the opportunities people think we're going to have. A lot of people look at mining and the natural resource sector as being a prime candidate, and it is, but it's going to need a regulatory process that reaches a conclusion much sooner than it currently does or other countries are going to take advantage of the opportunities we have in Canada. We're not the only place in the world with these resources.

We need to ensure that indigenous inclusion is a reality that the private sector embraces and includes, including access to capital and bringing those indigenous communities in. One of the greatest transitions that can occur in this country is if our indigenous people are included in all of these major corporations. We have to bridge a gap from being isolated from the economy for 300 years, and you can't move from where you were to operating in the international economy as it is today without some support.

One of the greatest things that can happen is for the private sector to bring us in. Bring our students and our professionals into their businesses, like Shannin has described today. He's a classic example of what can happen in that situation. That's critical. Accept the reality of there needing to be first nations inclusion and economic development.

We can all have different opinions about the various legislative pieces and court decisions, but the reality is that first nations are going to have a say in this country about our ability to harvest natural resources. Let's just get over the attempt to avoid that, embrace it and engage in processes that yield outcomes.

Everybody jumped up and down about the Trans Mountain pipeline until it opened up, and now everybody's asking, “When are we going to build the next one?” because of the economic impact for Alberta—and I know it. We have to get to the point where.... Trans Mountain made a business decision that it would include them from the very beginning. It was ahead of the curve. It was ahead of everybody else. That's now the standard.

I would encourage everybody to go and look at the ESG report of Trans Mountain, because it really identifies how we embraced the concept of economic inclusion.

I think that has to happen more broadly, and it is going to happen or we will lose opportunities. What happened in British Columbia in 2008 is going to happen in 2024 to the natural resource mining extraction sector if we don't embrace access to capital, inclusion and the regulatory framework.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you very much.

We'll finish with Mr. Battiste. Please, go ahead, sir.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Thank you very much.

Quickly, I think we can all agree that economic reconciliation is important. I think we all agree that, because of colonial policies and because of the Indian Act, indigenous communities haven't received their fair share of opportunities.

Would you all agree that having an indigenous carve-out for procurement and other things is an important step toward achieving economic reconciliation? I need you to be very brief because I have a follow-up question to that.

[Harold Calla]

It's critical. It's absolutely critical.

[Shannin Metatawabin]

I concur. That's really important. You have to open a door for people who were excluded to enter so that they can start participating.

Thank you.

[Dawn Madahbee Leach]

I also agree.