Evidence of meeting #150 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was businesses.
A video is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Jaime Battiste Liberal Sydney—Victoria, NS
Is it fair to say that this is an evolving topic when it comes to Métis and Inuit identity and that there is no one criterion that is currently available to any organization to simply determine this?
Board Chair, National Indigenous Economic Development Board, National Aboriginal Capital Corporations Association
I think there is. We know that the Inuit people—
Board Chair, National Indigenous Economic Development Board, National Aboriginal Capital Corporations Association
For example, there is the ITK. You can go to ITK, the Inuit Tapiriit Kanatami, and what they could do is provide you with the proper claims group to speak to, to verify an individual's Inuit status, I'll say.
We know that right now there are discussions around Nunatukavut and determining their eligibility as an Inuit organization. It—
Liberal
Jaime Battiste Liberal Sydney—Victoria, NS
Dawn, how about the Métis? Who do we go to for the Métis? If I'm in the Atlantic, and someone claims they're a member of the Eastern Woodland Métis, which doesn't have federal or legal definition, where does one go?
Board Chair, National Indigenous Economic Development Board, National Aboriginal Capital Corporations Association
They're not recognized as Métis in the Atlantic.
Liberal
Jaime Battiste Liberal Sydney—Victoria, NS
That's exactly what I just said, but I'm wondering if there is one definition that all of the different organizations use, from NACCA to the First Nations Financial Authority, to figure out a definition of “Métis”?
Board Chair, National Indigenous Economic Development Board, National Aboriginal Capital Corporations Association
Yes. Currently we look at what's written in the Powley case about connection to community. There's criteria in the court case that was passed, and the determination depends on the organizations.
For example, we do set in the definition that we recognize those affiliates of the Métis National Council, such as the Métis Nation of Alberta. We know that the Manitoba Métis Federation has done extensive work on identifying who Red River Métis are.
There are groups we've identified in the definition who we would go to, to determine whether or not their membership or their citizen applying for business programming is eligible. We go directly to the source to verify and to ensure that they meet the definitions of “community” as set out in the Powley court case.
Liberal
Jaime Battiste Liberal Sydney—Victoria, NS
What if it's the Métis Nation of Ontario or Métis Nation B.C.?
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
I apologize, Mr. Batiste, but we are past our time.
We'll go to Mrs. Vignola, please.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
My question is for Ms. Anderson and Mr. Metatawabin.
The officials we met with last week told us that discussions were taking place with first nations, Métis and Inuit regarding the transfer of responsibility for maintaining the Aboriginal Business Directory. This transfer would be in favour of indigenous organizations.
Is this the case? Do you have regular discussions with Indigenous Services Canada? For example, have you had any in the last three months?
Chief Executive Officer, National Aboriginal Capital Corporations Association
I guess you can call it announcing and talking about possible options, but when somebody says they're into talks, they're talking about how it's going to happen, and that has not happened.
We should be a lot farther down the road, considering we've been at this for four years. We are offering the opportunity to transfer that to the First Nations Procurement Organization, but we're not resourced. We haven't started to get ready. We haven't hired a CEO. We have a board of directors, who are mostly all sitting here and who are ready to start this work, but we need Indigenous Services Canada to affirm its support for this process and stop talking about all the options that it's considering. It's very paternalistic when you have rights holders saying, “This is what we want to do and we have a solution for you,” and the government is sitting back saying, “We're still thinking about it.”
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Thank you.
Can you quickly tell me how the creation of the First Nations Procurement Organization has been received by the federal government?
Also, how will this organization help reduce the problems associated with procurement from indigenous businesses? I'm thinking in particular of the issue of fake indigenous people.
Chief Executive Officer, National Aboriginal Capital Corporations Association
We've been at this for a while. I said that we've sent letters to the minister. We've sent letters to the Prime Minister. We've been trying to work with the officials.
We had a process for four years called the indigenous reference group talking about there being two parallel processes fixing the things that are going on with government right now. One, called the short-term process, we were told, was what the government was using to transform internally at that time, but we were always talking about a long-term process to transfer responsibility to an organization like ours.
Those two things need to be working in parallel, but I've been ghosted for like a year. We were talking last year, but they haven't engaged us for almost a year. They started a new process and rebranded the co-development table, calling it TIPS. That just started, so they're starting all over again; that is what I feel.
Conservative
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Mr. Metatawabin, you talked about Australia. Maybe you could share some of the examples around the world where there's leadership when it comes to procurement, and leadership around economic reconciliation and how it's driving economic reconciliation. I know that the U.S., for example, in my understanding, has also had some great success.
Chief Executive Officer, National Aboriginal Capital Corporations Association
Our idea with the First Nations Procurement Organization is one that already exists in the ecosystem. We all met at the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development with Supply Nation. They talked about their best practice in procurement. They've achieved $4.6 billion as of right now.
We talked about the IFIs, or the indigenous financial institutions, as an international best practice for deploying capital to indigenous entrepreneurs, so we're connected internationally. We just need to implement and stand up all these best practices, and that's what the FNPO is.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Again, back to Carol Anne Hilton from the Indigenomics Institute, which she is running, she is doing some work around indigenous economic data and AI.
Ms. Anderson, I saw you nod. Do you want to speak about how important having that indigenous economic data and investing in AI is when it comes to indigenous businesses and procurement specifically, and where the government is at right now?
Strategy and Partnerships Advisor, First Nations Finance Authority
Thank you for your question, Mr. Johns.
When it comes to data, there's no shortage of how often our communities are data mined right across this country. “Data sovereignty” is a term that is extremely important to our nations, in terms of owning and having a say in how that data is used, particularly if I reference OCAP.
As we move forward, it's very important that evidence-based and informed decisions are made through the use of accurate and updated data from our communities. We feel that there is an existing gap, particularly as it relates to access to capital. I would urge the government to look at indigenous-led solutions that have come forward in terms of owning and managing our own data.
With the use of AI, it's going to be extremely important to be very cautious and understand how this will work, with the benefit and to the benefit of our nations going forward, as opposed to against our nations.
Thank you.
Conservative
October 31st, 2024 / 12:05 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK
Thank you, Chair.
Welcome to all our witnesses here today.
My first questions will be for you, Mr. Matatawabin. Earlier you mentioned the letters that you sent to the Prime Minister, the Minister of Indigenous Services and others to get recognition of the AFN resolution. Can you advise this committee how long ago you sent those letters?
Chief Executive Officer, National Aboriginal Capital Corporations Association
Well, Dawn and I actually ran into Minister Hajdu at our indigenous prosperity forum in May and we told her about the First Nations Procurement Organization. She liked the idea. She said that we should accelerate this because it sounded like a great idea, and we offered Keith Conn the opportunity to certify the indigenous business list right then and there.
After that, we sent a letter to Minister Hajdu, through the national chief, and I think that went out in August. We sent the Prime Minister a letter, and he responded to let us know that we should deal with the minister. We're trying to access the right officials to ensure that this initiative is elevated to the level that it needs to be.
Conservative
Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK
Okay, so it has been almost three months since your conversations or your letter to Minister Hajdu, and not really much of a response from the Prime Minister.
It is my understanding that one purpose of the FNPO is to facilitate and coordinate advice to the Government of Canada in establishing a policy and legislative framework necessary to achieve the 5% indigenous procurement target across the whole of government. However, according to the report on the mandatory minimum 5% target, $1.6 billion—6.27%—of all contracts were awarded to indigenous businesses, so on the face of it, it would appear that the government already exceeded its target for 2024-25. In fact, just last week the deputy minister of Indigenous Services said they had surpassed the 5% target. What is your response to that?
Chief Executive Officer, National Aboriginal Capital Corporations Association
I'll tell you the response I gave to the officials when I was at the AFN assembly in a dialogue session: I don't believe it. If we're not part of measuring the metrics and ensuring indigeneity of the people in that database and the contracts that are let, then you can't believe anything that is presented to you. Until I'm involved in something and our colleagues are involved in developing what and who we're measuring and using this indigenous business definition that we created, then I'm not going to accept any target.
Conservative
Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK
Thank you.
We heard many times here in this committee how difficult it is for smaller companies to get into government procurement. Now, with this study, we heard that it is particularly difficult for indigenous companies because they need to be on a list to be considered indigenous. Can you speak to the difficulties encountered by businesses you worked with that are trying to get into government procurement? How does it differ from the private sector?