Evidence of meeting #151 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was know.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Sandra McCardell  Associate Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Robin Dubeau  Acting Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Real Property and Infrastructure Solutions, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

11 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 151 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates, widely known, of course, as the mighty OGGO.

Before we start, I'll give a gentle reminder to everyone to please keep your headphones away from your mics. Do not touch the mic handle, so we can protect the valued hearing of our even more valued interpreters.

We will start right off.

Welcome, Minister. I don't think I've seen you before in OGGO, so welcome to your first appearance. We'll turn the floor over to you for a five-minute opening statement.

11 a.m.

Ahuntsic-Cartierville Québec

Liberal

Mélanie Joly LiberalMinister of Foreign Affairs

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, as well as ladies and gentlemen of the committee, thank you for inviting me today. I am pleased to see you.

We are in the midst of an international security crisis. We are facing ever more complex modern challenges, such as climate change, artificial intelligence, acute political polarization, irregular migration and rising inequality.

Although our international institutions were never perfect, both they and their worldwide rules, forged in the ashes of World War II, represent the basis of global co‑operation. Now more than ever, they are being tested.

In recent years, this worldwide system has been tested by the challenges we are now facing. Our world is marked by geopolitical turbulence, by unpredictability and by uncertainty, especially on an economic level. In this time of global crisis and deep uncertainty, Canada must redouble its efforts and make investments in order to protect Canadians’ interests. At the heart of these interests is the relationship between Canada and the United States. This relationship exists on the level of geopolitics, security and economics.

That is what is at stake here. All of our allies and adversaries are making massive investments in their diplomatic presence around the world and in the U.S. Our Canadian presence abroad, and yes, including in New York City and the northeastern region of the U.S., is vital. Any suggestion to the contrary is extremely irresponsible and dangerous.

This area shares a border with Canada. It has a very high concentration of people, capital, institutions and other like-minded partners that are critical to Canada's interest both at home and abroad. Here, we can exert influence. Canadians expect us to be at the table.

The consulate general in New York is not only Canada's oldest consulate, it is one of our most important missions in the world. We're talking about access to a market worth more than $6 trillion, $200 billion in annual two-way trade in this region alone, and connecting Canadian exporters with international markets and providing essential market intelligence.

The consulate also directly supports Canadians particularly during crisis. You may recall a tour bus crash in upstate New York or the incident at the Rainbow Bridge last November.

We need a Canadian presence on the ground to liaise with U.S. authorities and relay accurate information. We cannot rely on Fox News, like Pierre Poilievre does, and end up calling the Rainbow Bridge incident a “terrorist attack”.

At Global Affairs Canada, we have 182 missions in over 112 countries. Real property management is the responsibility of a team of qualified officials. I gave them clear instructions to ensure that the rules were always upheld and that Canadian taxpayers got the best possible value for their money. That is what I expect of them.

As the committee heard, Global Affairs Canada officials followed all the procedures when downsizing the New York official residence. Their decision was made to guarantee the best value for Canadian taxpayers’ money, which is what I expect from my department. During the many meetings it held on the subject, the committee also heard that this was an operational decision, not a political one.

On a last note, Mr. Chair, I just want to say that I find it ironic that on the day of this historic and pivotal election in the United States, the opposition continues to argue that we should be reducing our presence in the United States. To be clear, I disagree.

American voters will make a choice today. Our government will respect that choice and work closely with the new administration.

I, for one, firmly believe that one of the most important ways to show respect for our neighbour, engage with them and build our relationship is face to face.

I will now take your questions.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Thank you, Minister.

We'll start with Mr. Barrett for six minutes, please.

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

New documents reported in Politico today reveal that Tom Clark lied during his appearance before this committee. We know that he personally complained that his taxpayer-funded residence wasn't up to his standards because it didn't have a luxury kitchen or the perfect floor plan. After Tom Clark complained, Justin Trudeau rewarded his friend and media pal with a new luxury condo at four times the cost to taxpayers.

To Canadians who are watching, Justin Trudeau and Tom Clark fleeced the taxpayers, and they tried to cover it up.

Minister, do you think it's appropriate for Justin Trudeau to have awarded his media pal Tom Clark with such a flagrant waste of tax dollars, especially during this cost of living crisis that we're facing?

Mélanie Joly Liberal Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC

Before you interrupt me, because I know, Michael, that's a strategy you use, I really think there are three things.

First, I think Canadians are getting good value for money, because there will be $7 million in Canadian taxpayer savings. Second, the process was respected at all times. Third, I profoundly believe that more than ever, as the American people are going through an important election today, we need to invest in our presence in the U.S.

I really hope, Michael, that you agree with me. I know that your riding is next to the U.S., and you have two bridges that permit fantastic workers to go through, truck drivers, exporting and importing in the millions of dollars every day between Canada and the U.S.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Okay. That was sufficient time for you to not answer the question, Minister.

Mélanie Joly Liberal Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC

I have answered your question.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Is it common for your department to spend nearly $10 million on luxury condos without you personally approving?

Mélanie Joly Liberal Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC

First and foremost, to answer your question, this was not a political decision. It was an operational decision. You had numerous people, officials of mine, who came to see you and said that. These are the facts, and I really hope that you can—

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

When did you approve the $9-million luxury condo—

Mélanie Joly Liberal Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC

Mr. Chair, this is again the strategy that Michael uses, which is to interrupt me.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

—for Consul General Tom Clark?

Mélanie Joly Liberal Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC

Michael, can you just stop? I'll just finish. I promise it won't be long.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

I have a point of order, Chair.

Mélanie Joly Liberal Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC

I just want to finish my sentence.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Mr. Barrett.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

In spite of the minister's hostile response to my first question, she was afforded equal time to the amount of time I posed the question, even though she didn't answer it. I asked a second question, and she was afforded an equal amount of time to the length of the question. She was able to do with that what she wished. Now, if the minister wants to interrupt me, that, of course, is not in order at this committee.

Chair, could you please provide clarification to the minister that she will be afforded the same amount of time to respond as the amount of time that I posed the question?

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

It has been a practice at this committee that it is the member's time. If you wish to take five minutes for a question and provide 30 seconds for a response, that is your decision, Mr. Barrett. It is the committee member's time.

Go ahead, sir.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

When did you first learn about the $9-million New York City condo on Billionaires' Row for Justin Trudeau's media buddy Tom Clark? What was the date?

Mélanie Joly Liberal Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC

First and foremost, I must say that this was not a political decision, so I learned of it through the media. At the same time, I made sure that all rules were respected, and that's the case in this case.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Okay, we didn't get a date from the minister.

The story broke on July 12. I have an email from your former chief of staff dated June 17, which says:

Thank you for the briefing note of the issue.

The decision to sell and purchase a new residence seems the logical step to take in this instance.

Did you meet with your chief of staff between June 17 and July 12?

Mélanie Joly Liberal Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC

I must say that of course the department informed my chief of staff once the decision was taken, because of course it was not a political decision.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

How many times did you meet with your chief?

Mélanie Joly Liberal Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC

It was many times per day, Michael. Do you know what? It's good news, because there are so many things happening—

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

This is flagrant malpractice—