Government Operations Committee on Nov. 5th, 2024

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

According to the Vienna Convention, a tax exemption can therefore not apply to co‑operatives. Thank you.

Minister, I’m coming back to a question raised on August 21. When it was asked, we were told that it should be directed to you.

Why not inform the public of the transaction once it was done?

Is it the usual practice not to inform the public about a new transaction concluded by Global Affairs Canada?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

That is part of the department’s daily operations. As you know, we have 182 missions throughout the world, spread out over 112 countries, with thousands of employees. The department makes real estate transactions every day or every week.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

There are so many transactions that the public is not informed about what is happening on a daily basis. That is what I understand from your answer.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Yes. That is why real property asset management must be done well. Treasury Board manages the rules in place. That is why I expect the department to respect those rules: to ensure that its work is guided properly and that taxpayers in Quebec and Canada know they got value for their money.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Is there somewhere a taxpayer could see transactions conducted by Global Affairs Canada?

In short, are they transparent?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Of course, legislation regarding government transparency applies. There are processes as well, including when it comes to access to information requests and protecting privacy.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

So, an access to information request is required. There’s no website offering a certain amount of transparency when it comes to Global Affairs Canada’s transactions.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

That is my understanding. Perhaps Mr. Dubeau could add something?

[Robin Dubeau]

Since all assets acquired or sold by the government must be listed in the Directory of Federal Real Property, it could include that information.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you very much.

On August 20, 2024, during her testimony, Ms. Tattersall, the assistant comptroller general, said that real estate transactions in Canada had to be done “in a fair and open manner.” In real terms, what is a fair and open transaction? It’s fair towards whom or towards what? What does that mean, exactly?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Give a short response, please.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Of course, Canadian taxpayers must get value for their money. It must be done in a fully transparent way and in the interests of Canadians.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you very much, Mrs. Vignola.

We have Ms. Blaney, please, for six minutes.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you very much to the chair.

I thank the witnesses for being here with us today.

I think this is a hard conversation. When you have so many Canadians across the country really struggling to afford basic necessities and you know how hard it is when you're thinking about if you can keep your house or you are going to have to sell it, and you actually have to pay more in rent than you do for your mortgage, it's hard to hear about big spending. I want to recognize that.

I also have a hard time listening to the Conservatives when I know back in October 2010, their investment in properties and diplomatic residences rose by 430%. It's a bit frustrating on both sides for me to listen to this when I know how hard it is for Canadians right now.

I do see the value in diplomacy. I do see the value, of course, in these opportunities, although I would love to see us do a little bit more work connecting rural and remote communities to some of these opportunities. I hope that you will continue to expand your knowledge and understanding of how to do that.

I do have a few questions, through the chair, for you, Minister.

I heard your response multiple times saying it wasn't a political decision, and I understand that as a person who understands the basic roles of operations versus the political influence in this place. However, there is a lot of concern that there was political interference. I'm wondering if you could please explain to the committee if there is a price threshold for property purchases within Global Affairs Canada. Are there limits? Through the chair, how are you as minister, and in your role, included? When are you talked to about it? Again, you said that you learned about it when you opened the news, and that seems a little concerning to me, so I'm wondering how that works.

I understand that you've delegated the role to staff. I understand that it's operational. However, how are you included to make sure that there's some wisdom in the political realm?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

There is wisdom. We made sure that all transactions below $10 million would be done by the department, understanding that the real estate markets around the world are different sometimes from Canada's. There are many jurisdictions around the world where real estate is really expensive, including, of course, Manhattan. Nobody's surprised by it here. Based on that, the decision was taken by the department to invest, but also make sure there would be good value for money, that accessibility rules would be respected, etc.

I can offer my officials, Sandra and Robin, to answer your questions regarding the different criteria, because I think it's really important—and that's my expectation, that they follow the criteria.

However, Rachel, we also do so based on what our like-minded partners do, and that's really important. What does the U.K. do? What does Australia do? What does New Zealand do? What do France, Italy, Germany and the EU do? How do they deal with their real estate? Of course, we're not alone in this diplomatic game. We are trying to defend our interests, sometimes in competition with others. So I—

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

I appreciate that.

I'm sorry, Minister. I've not tried to interrupt, and I certainly don't want us to talk over each other. I know that's very hard for our interpreters.

I hear what you're saying, and I respect that, but there's a lot of concern as well about the role of the consul general. I'm wondering, in your view, if the consul general should be consulted about or involved in the purchase of an official residence, and if you could tell me why or why not.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

There is an entire branch within my department that is in charge of dealing with all the real estate we have. We have the expertise. It is important, because we're dealing with 182 different jurisdictions with thousands of people across the diplomatic network. Some of them, of course, as diplomats do live abroad in these different residences, or work every day in our consulates, embassies and high commissions.

Usually, what is being done, of course, is that branch of the department is in charge of the real estate. They take the decisions. Through this entire process you've heard that more than 20 different options were looked at, and there were—

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

I appreciate that, but could we just come back to that?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

I'm getting there.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

What I want to know is this: Is it specific for each consul general that they're included, or is it a more general approach where you get an understanding of what is needed on a broad scope—

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Of course.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

—and then apply it?

There's a lot of insinuation here that there was a specific connection, and I think that's concerning for Canadians.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Rachel, I was getting to that.

Of course, usually, high commissioners, ambassadors and consuls are informed, but they're not decision-makers, never.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks very much.

We'll go to Mr. Brock for five minutes.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Minister, notwithstanding your opening comments about the importance of Canada's relationship with the United States, your appearance today is exclusively about the egregious abuse of taxpayer money.

Emily Nicholson, the chief of staff to your associate deputy minister of foreign affairs and the author of the infamous memo, was given information that Tom Clark was instrumental throughout the process and gave the green light for the purchase of the Billionaires' Row condo. She testified that she simply inserts information as it is provided to her.

Minister, you acknowledge that she wrote the original memo, circulated on June 17, to your former chief that states Clark was instrumental. Is that correct?