Evidence of meeting #151 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was know.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Sandra McCardell  Associate Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Robin Dubeau  Acting Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Real Property and Infrastructure Solutions, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

The crux of the motion is that this new information, as determined by Politico and which Politico obtained, shows a direct contradiction between Mr. Clark's testimony to this committee and information he communicated to the department.

I will quote the article, which says that he “notified Global Affairs” that the official residence “was 'not suitable'”—these are his words—"for hosting, or for living and 'required immediate replacement'”—those are also his words—“documents show.”

If I were to go home to my husband this weekend and say, “Honey, our home is not suitable for our family and it requires immediate replacement,” I could only expect and understand that my husband would take it as a signal and a communication that we need a new home. There can be no other interpretation of these words that Mr. Clark communicated to Global Affairs Canada. Saying something is “not suitable” and saying that it “required immediate replacement” indicates Mr. Clark saw the necessity of a new location, and not only that but a better one, as indicated by the words “not suitable”.

He “expressed concerns regarding the completion...of the kitchen and refurbishment project and indicated the unit was not suitable to be the...accommodations and it does not have an ideal floor plan for...representational activities.” These things all indicate, first of all, his input into the process; second, his asking for an immediate action; and, third, his wanting some type of improvement. I believe that's what “not suitable” indicates.

If he would like to come here and argue there were other more reasonable requirements, such as it not being accessible or his aspirations relative to his mandate with large monthly gatherings and his desire to make Canada shine, he can come here and he can argue those things. He can do that if he likes, but it is evident from the article and from the information as obtained by Politico that he communicated he had input into this decision, which is contrary to what he shared with this committee.

Any time we have found a contradiction in testimony—and, unfortunately, with this government we have found contradiction in testimony several times over in several situations; I won't repeat them or belabour them once again, but this is not the first time—it has been our practice, with new information, to call a witness back to this committee not only to give them the opportunity to correct the record, because this is the fair and right thing to do, but also to justify their actions and their words to Canadians. Whether something was misinterpreted or whether the new information was in a different context, we have always provided this space and this opportunity, when there have been contradictions, for witnesses to come back.

I believe, given this new information from Politico today and given the clear contradiction between the testimony of Mr. Clark and what we have found out today, it behooves us, as a committee, not only for the purpose of finding out why this contradiction exists but also for the transparency of information to and for Canadians, to invite Mr. Clark back.

I believe that, in supporting this motion, we are supporting transparency. We are recognizing that a contradiction exists and are giving Mr. Clark the opportunity to come back and provide an explanation and transparency to Canadians as to why $9 million of their hard-earned money was spent when there's a record two million Canadians lining up at food banks—a 28% increase in my own city of Calgary.

I think these are all justifiable reasons to support this motion and to call Mr. Clark back, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much.

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Thank you.

We'll go to Mr. Brock and then to Mr. Sousa.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

One thing that I remember vividly from Mr. Clark's previous testimony at the mighty OGGO was just how adamant he was, to the point of literally raising his voice and turning red in colour in face, that from start to finish he had no influence whatsoever in the acquisition of the condominium on Billionaires' Row.

I'm going to be speaking on behalf of Mrs. Kusie, Mr. Barrett and myself. I believe Mrs. Block was also in attendance. All four of us didn't believe one word that he was saying. This was well before we received any evidence from Politico. All of us accused him of lying, to which he took great offence.

Here we are some several months removed and the political instincts of the Conservative members here in OGGO were 100% validated. Notwithstanding that the old condominium on Park Avenue was quite suitable for over 20 consuls general, two months within the mandate of Tom Clark, which just happens to coincide with records that this committee has received and with a cozy meeting that Tom Clark had with Justin Trudeau in Manhattan, where both of them were boasting, smiling and laughing in the back of a limousine driving down one of the major thoroughfares of Manhattan, we learn now that Tom Clark is a confirmed liar.

I know, Mr. Sousa, you find it rather remarkable to hear me now saying that, but it's interesting that when this story broke, which I believe was yesterday, from Politico, there was such an eerie silence from the Liberal government. There was nothing by way of any sort of clarifying statement from the PMO. There was no clarifying statement from Justin Trudeau and nothing from Tom Clark. There was just eerie silence, as if it was a child getting caught with his hand in the cookie jar.

That's what I equate this to because now we know that within two months of Tom Clark's arrival in New York, he notified Global Affairs. We don't know how that notification took place, whether it was a phone call, an email, or if it was relayed via Justin Trudeau. Who knows? We'll eventually find all of that out, but it certainly requires a deeper examination.

He notified that it was “not suitable” for hosting or for living, and required immediate replacement because obviously, a multi-decades-old condominium didn't suit the particular lavish lifestyle of Tom Clark. To feed that hubris element of Tom Clark, whose ego is as large as all the oceans combined—

Charles Sousa Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON

[Inaudible—Editor]

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Thank you for that, Mr. Sousa. I'll take that as a compliment.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Mr. Brock has the floor, please.

12:25 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

He wanted to live like a king.

Interestingly, how this story broke to Canadians is through the American media. The American media caught up with the acquisition, this purchase on Billionaires' Row, and it was listed in the name of His Majesty the King.

That sparked interest. That sparked curiosity. It was only then that Global Affairs confirmed, “No, no, no. It's not King Charles who is looking for an alternate residence, a secondary or a tertiary residence. No, no, no. It's for the consul general.” Then the story started to break, and we started to learn about all of these impressive amenities: the Venetian marble, the full suite of Gaggenau appliances.

I did some research on Gaggenau. Gaggenau is the most expensive appliance manufacturer in the world. Kings, I'm sure, have Gaggenau appliances. Shahs and sheikhs have Gaggenau appliances. The coffee maker alone is $5,000. If memory serves me correctly, the refrigerator alone is $19,000.

There are three bedrooms, because it's important that Tom Clark and his wife have access to extra bedrooms. You never know when Justin will want to go down to Manhattan. Perhaps they have an extra room for him to sleep in.

In addition to that, we have all of the other amenities available to occupants of Billionaires' Row. We have the golf simulator. We have the full-length swimming lanes. We have the paddle courts.

Yes, Tom Clark is living the life of luxury and is living the life of a king. There are news articles basically profiling that.

It really concerns me, as a lawyer and a former participant in the justice system, in terms of when people come to committees. I always say that, depending on the nature of the issue and the witness, although there is no formal requirement to swear or to affirm to tell the truth, by its very nature, a committee is set up so that individuals are expected to tell the truth. When they don't tell the truth, and it's confirmed that witnesses have not told the truth, there is a process in Parliament that these individuals can receive their just consequences.

A case in point is Kristian Firth. All members of this committee remember Kristian Firth, who ultimately had to face the wrath of appearing at the bar of the House of Commons to answer to his deliberate lies.

I take lying at committee very, very seriously, but it wasn't just Tom Clark, although the motion is centred around Tom Clark. This is one of the questions I posed to the minister today. We've heard from a litany of government officials who, in essence, confirmed 100% the lie that Tom Clark shared with this committee during his last appearance, that he had no involvement.

If it was said once, it must have been said a hundred times repeatedly over the course of several months, since we started this study in the late spring or early summer.

We're not asking that those officials be recalled, although I think there are political grounds to do that. This particular motion is centred very squarely on Tom Clark.

I know that Mr. Jowhari, in his statement at the outset, claims that this is a useless exercise, that the report is a fait accompli, that there's going to be no evidence of any political connection whatsoever.

With all due respect to Mr. Jowhari, the fact that I'm now referencing everything that I have in relation to the political story—

Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

Mr. Chair, I have a point of order.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

—and in relation to the previous testimony—

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

I have a point of order, Mr. Brock. Excuse me.

Go ahead, Mr. Jowhari.

Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

I'd like to say that the conclusion that MP Larry Brock drew from my comments is not appropriate.

Thank you.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Continue, Mr. Brock.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

What we're trying to do, ultimately, and I would expect that every parliamentarian in this House of Commons would want this, is to get to the truth.

The fact is that Mr. Jowhari has already telegraphed his opposition to this motion. I wouldn't be surprised, because they all follow suit, of course, that Ms. Atwin, Mr. Kusmierczyk, Mr. Sousa will all do the same because they don't believe in accountability, Mr. Chair. They don't believe in transparency. Wherever there's been a hint of a scandal or a cover-up, you know the good Liberal members of the OGGO bench will carry the water of Justin Trudeau because they don't want to make this political. Ultimately, we may draw the connection. We may join the dots and show a direct political influence with—

Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

—the acquisition of this condominium.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Excuse me, Mr. Brock.

Go ahead, Mr. Jowhari.

Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

I would gladly carry Prime Minister Justin Trudeau's water any day rather than carrying Mr. Pierre Poilievre's water, which you guys are doing. The divisiveness—

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

I will decide on the point of order.

Mr. Jowhari, that's not a point of order.

Mr. Brock, continue.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Mr. Kusmierczyk calls it a leaky bucket, so it probably is leaky. The number of buckets that those members have had to carry for Justin Trudeau over nine years must be rather enormous.

We'll see what happens in the next election, Mr. Jowhari.

Jenica Atwin Liberal Fredericton, NB

I have a point of order.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Go ahead, Mrs. Atwin.

Jenica Atwin Liberal Fredericton, NB

I think it's Standing Order 18—

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Colleagues, colleagues, please.

Mr. Jowhari, your colleague has the floor, not you.

Jenica Atwin Liberal Fredericton, NB

Mr. Chair, if I'm not mistaken, Standing Order 18 says to not insult other members, nor to speak disparagingly. I'm taking some of the things a little personally now.

I don't think I have insulted—