Government Operations Committee on Nov. 7th, 2024

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Are we fine with that, colleagues?

(Amendment agreed to)

(Motion as amended agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])

Thank you, Mrs. Vignola, for your Pearson-esque work with us today. That's timely because I'm reading the book The Duel, which is about Diefenbaker and Pearson.

We are now back to our regular order. Mrs. Kusie has done her time. Now we're on Mr. Jowhari.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses.

Okay, in the anticipation that we were going to have this meeting start about an hour earlier, I wanted to start asking the officials.... I had an opportunity to go back to the newsletter that Politico put out called Ottawa Playbook. If I go to the section of the November 5 edition, “Home Sweet Home”, it says:

Both the Consul General in New York, TOM CLARK, and his office raised concerns about his official residence in Manhattan prior to Canada buying a new C$9 million luxury condo, documents obtained through access to information laws show.

But a spokesperson for Global Affairs Canada tells Playbook the input “did not influence the final decision to relocate.”

My colleague MP Bachrach had brought up a point. When Mr. Tom Clark was here, I specifically asked this question: “Did you at any time talk to anyone regarding a desire for relocation?” Mr. Tom Clark said, “Never.” Then I followed up with “Did anyone talk to you about the need for the move, at any point or any level?” Mr. Tom Clark said, “I was aware, as the head of mission, that there were discussions going on with the property division. I was not part of those discussions. I did not involve myself in them in any sort of way.” So, I personally asked the question of Mr. Clark. These are the extracts from the Evidence.

Based on access to information, Politico has drawn a conclusion. Can you help clarify?

[Robin Dubeau]

Chair, yes, I can certainly bring some clarity to the matter.

Ultimately, a head of mission expressing a view about a property does not necessarily influence the process and I will explain to you why.

We have a very robust process by which we capture all of the needs and the requirements from various sources. That would include consulting with the mission and the mission staff on the ground. Then we receive input and all of that is compiled in a document that is called a statement of investment requirement. It's a very sophisticated document in which we put all of the requirements.

That document is used to go to governance and then the governance looks at the requirements and applies the standards that we have as per our manual. All of this process is very regulated. It has very robust governance looking at it.

In the course of doing this, we have asked the mission for their views. We didn't ask the consul general directly for his views. He didn't engage with us to give us his views directly. However, in the documents, somebody has quoted an opinion that he may have shared at the mission with his staff.

I would say that with all of that due process that followed the reception of the statement of requirement, the process was very isolated and was managed all by headquarters without influence from Mr. Clark.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you.

You used the word “isolated”. Apparently there were 21 properties.

Do you have any knowledge of whether the consul general went and looked at other properties as part of this process or was the property in discussion the only one he looked at?

[Robin Dubeau]

I have no knowledge of him visiting other properties.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Since it's being portrayed that somehow the consul general had influence, if I may ask you, why would he choose the lowest priced condominium rather than choosing the, I don't know, $44 million one or other properties that other consuls general had selected?

[Robin Dubeau]

I would say that he didn't choose. We did. We picked that property from that list of 21 mainly because it met all of the requirements for the program and also because it was one of the least expensive properties that we visited, both in absolute cost and in cost per square metre. That was a big driver for us to select that property.

All of this went through a very robust process that was supervised by governance, so he didn't have any influence on that choice.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Can the consul general come back and say, “I don't want to move to this property”?

[Robin Dubeau]

Mr. Chair, we work in collaboration with the mission, so this process is years in the making. It would be surprising that, coming at the end, the head of mission would not move to the property. It would not be his decision because we made a decision based on the portfolio requirements.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

We are told that he supposedly influenced only two months after he was appointed.

How long was this process going on for before he was appointed as the consul general in New York?

[Robin Dubeau]

Mr. Chair, it started 10 years ago with reports about problems arising at the official residence. We had a building condition report done in 2017. We had a project that was approved for some renovation in 2021.

I would say this whole reflection on how we should manage the deficiencies of the official residence was under way for more than 10 years.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Is it fair to assume that all the comments you were making were based on the briefing that was given?

[Robin Dubeau]

The comments that I read in the document are all aligned with things that already existed.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you, Mr. Jowhari.

We're going to go to Mrs. Vignola, but if you don't mind, can I ask just a quick clarification on Mr. Jowhari's question?

Have you provided when the decision was made to actually buy a new residence, as opposed to renovating?

[Robin Dubeau]

We launched an option analysis in June 2023. That's when we looked at whether we should go—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Yes, that's all I was trying to clarify. Thanks very much.

Mrs. Vignola, go ahead, please, for six minutes.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Dubeau, Mr. Hounzangbé and Ms. Guay, for being with us.

Mr. Hounzangbé, the residence on 57th Street is one of the five cheapest properties on the list of properties that were visited and considered for purchase, the initial 39 properties having been got down to 21. The testimony of the broker who appeared before this committee on August 21 was that there were three days of visits, after which four residences remained on the list.

I would like to put two questions to you.

How much did these residences cost and what were their characteristics?

If it is not possible to provide us with that information orally today, which I imagine might take half an eternity, you can send it to us in writing.

Why was one of the residences costing less than $9 million not chosen, for example, like the ones for $4 million or $5 million?

Why choose the one that cost $9 million, rather than the other three that were still on the list?

[Franck Hounzangbé, Director General, Policy and Planning, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development]

Mr. Chair, I thank the member for the question. I also thank her for giving me the opportunity to provide some clarification.

Whenever we look at properties, we are juggling two factors. The first is the cost of the property and the second is the benefits it provides. We have to determine the extent to which the property will meet the requirements set out in our property management manual.

I do not actually have the specific information about those four properties, but the decisions are always made based on one factor that corroborates another.

You asked why we did not select the cheapest property. Once a property is selected, a number of stakeholders in a department have their say, in particular regarding matters relating to security, architecture, and so on. So that is why cost is not the only determining factor in choosing a property.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Dubeau, to your knowledge, have the consuls happened to give their opinion, since 2014, whether officially or informally, about apartment 12E at 550 Park Avenue?

Might the details of an informal conversation have made their way to the ears of people in high places?

[Robin Dubeau]

Mr. Chair, I would not be able to recall information provided since 2014, because I have only held this position since 2022. However, it may be that a consul general expressed opinions at that time that might have been heard by the people they have with them or their employees.

The diplomats who live in our residences very often have opinions about the usefulness and effectiveness of their residence.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you.

The apartment does belong to the Government of Canada and not to the consul in office.

Is that correct?

[Robin Dubeau]

That is correct.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you.

When a new consul takes up office, do they have a say in the contents of the apartment?

For example, can a consul choose the wall art or furniture, or do they have to work with what is there in the residence? Do they get a say when they move into the apartment?

[Robin Dubeau]

They do not get a choice. Ordinarily, an official residence is assigned to an ambassador with its contents, and they have to accept it as is.