Government Operations Committee on Nov. 19th, 2024

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

I'll just come back to the idea you were discussing, Minister, about meeting with stakeholders. Looking at the plan moving forward and what that's going to look like, do you have any timelines you could share with the committee on that work? Are there actual timelines? I heard a lot of back and forth about the integrity of the process, but we also know that, even with the process, people were fraudulently accessing these funds.

I understand that, to the level of integrity that you can have in the process, it's there, but it's obviously not there to the level that I hope we would all like to see. I'm just wondering if you could share a timeline, moving forward, for how this process is going to actually unfold and how long we are going to have to wait.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I'd like to turn to Jessica to talk about the consultations that are under way and maybe a little bit about the timeline as well.

[Jessica Sultan, Director General, Economic Policy Development, Department of Indigenous Services]

Since 2021, there has been work undertaken by something called the transformative indigenous procurement strategy, which is set to wrap up in 2025-26.

There have been extensive consultations both with indigenous economic development organizations as well as directly with indigenous businesses and communities. We're taking the feedback directly from those engagements to formulate next steps and move forward in the timeline. We're looking specifically at the transfer of the validation and verification function of businesses and changes to the existing procurement strategy for indigenous business that are designed to address the opportunities that exist for continuous improvement.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Okay. Thank you for that.

At what point does the government get out of the business completely so that it's indigenous-led? I mean, this is what you're talking about, and I just want to say that identity is not owned by first nations people, for sure. I have status children. Their children will have a lesser status because I'm not indigenous. That's how it works. That means you can eventually get to a generation where you don't have status, and to me, this is the problem. The problem is that the government is involved. You're talking about getting out, but when?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Answer briefly.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I think Jessica was clear that the goal is that we would be able to have something in place by 2025, and I would say sooner, if possible. I'm in conversations with the partners themselves, who all agree that, as soon as possible, they would like to manage the lists. However, they also all agree that they don't want a dilution of procurement from indigenous businesses, so that's the balance we're trying to reach.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you very much.

Next is Mr. Barrett for five minutes, please.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Minister, today, Canada's first indigenous justice minister and attorney general, Jody Wilson-Raybould, who, as you know, was fired from cabinet by Mr. Trudeau for speaking out against and trying to stop his attempted obstruction of justice, issued a statement online, which said, “A Prime Minister committed to true reconciliation would have removed Randy (and the other Randy) from Cabinet long ago. Instead we get to watch white people play ancestry wheel of fortune. So shameful and extremely destructive!”

Do you agree with that characterization?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

What I would say is that any use of indigenous identity in a fraudulent way undermines indigenous people.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Okay. We have a member of your cabinet, a member of your caucus, a 50% owner of a company that claimed to be wholly indigenous-owned, who applied for government contracts under that false pretense. To dispense with the pleasantries, Randy Boissonnault lied about who he is in order to profit, and in doing so attempted to disenfranchise legitimate and actual indigenous-owned businesses. Do you think that is appropriate?

If you don't think it's appropriate, do you think he should remain in cabinet?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

What I would say is that GHI, the company in question, was never on the indigenous business directory—

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Right, so they applied. They—

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I cannot, for example, weigh in on what decision points were made when GHI was awarded contracts. I can tell you, though, with a very high degree of confidence, he was not on the list that defined “indigeneity”.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

He wasn't on the list. He has previously said he is indigenous. He is now saying he is not. We know he applied for a contract saying he was indigenous, and this is the point Ms. Wilson-Raybould has made—that it undermines reconciliation.

Would you agree that a cabinet minister claiming indigeneity to win government contracts and remaining in cabinet undermines the government-stated goal of reconciliation?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I think Mr. Boissonnault's statement is on record. What I can say is what I've just said, which is I think that, when people utilize false claims of indigeneity, it's extremely harmful to indigenous people and it's extremely harmful to the process of reconciliation.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Thank you for that.

Unfortunately, the Prime Minister, Mr. Trudeau, said this morning, “I’m happy that he”—Randy Boissonnault—“is continuing to lead on issues around jobs and employment and represent Alberta in our government.”

You agree it's harmful. The Prime Minister doesn't. Do you agree or do you disagree with the Prime Minister's delight that Mr. Boissonnault, who is a fraudster, is continuing to represent Alberta in the Government of Canada, in your cabinet, and all the while attempting to disenfranchise indigenous individuals and indigenous-owned businesses?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I think what is important here is that it's not up to me or any other person to police people's indigeneity. For me, this isn't about—

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Minister, you say it's not for you to police, but he said he lied. He's the one who said he lied. You know that he lied. You just need to have the moral clarity to say that what he did was wrong, that it undermines reconciliation and that this type of fraud is unacceptable in your government.

The rest of my time goes to Mr. Genuis.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

You have 50 seconds.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Are there any instances of companies facing consequences for indigenous identity fraud that you can identify?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I don't think I can answer that question as I don't—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Okay. I'll go to something else, but could you provide us with a list afterwards of any instances of companies that have faced consequences for indigenous identity fraud and what those consequences would be?

It's been reported that Randy Boissonnault's claims that his great-grandmother was Cree were false. Those were claims he personally made in the House of Commons. They have now been revealed to be false. Do you have any comment on that?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

My comment stands. On the issue of indigeneity, it's not for me to determine who is indigenous, but in general, claims of indigeneity that are false are very harmful to indigenous peoples.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Okay.

Chair, just in the seconds I have left, the minister in the last round referenced the office of supplier integrity and compliance as being able to answer certain questions she is not been able to answer. I wonder if there would be agreement for us to hear from the office of supplier integrity and compliance at some point to help shed some further light on these things.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

There seems to be agreement.

That is your time.