Government Operations Committee on Nov. 19th, 2024

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Okay. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks.

We'll finish up with Mr. Battiste.

Go ahead, please, you have five minutes.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm finding the whole Conservative narrative a little bit problematic. There are several different groups, whether it be academia or music, that have struggled with this question of who is indigenous and who isn't. They're asking you to be the overall overseer in policing this. I can tell you that first nations don't want you, as a non-indigenous minister, to tell them who is and who isn't indigenous.

However, I feel it is even more hypocritical because, when I was the Mi'kmaq coordinator for the Mi'kmaq of Nova Scotia and their citizenship code, I was watching as the Harper Conservatives stumbled through this whole process themselves with the recognition of the Mi'kmaq of Qalipu, where they, as part of their government, used a Métis test for first nations in Newfoundland that resulted in 100,004 applications for a first nations band.

The Conservatives would have you believe that everyone who thought they had a family member who was Mi'kmaq committed fraud. All across the Atlantic, 104,000 people believed they were eligible for this process because of the Harper-led Conservatives in this space of trying to identify who was indigenous.

For them to sit over here and say that we should have all the answers, when they stumbled through their whole process on this.... I had people coming to my riding office who said that they were approved originally as a status Mi'kmaq, but that now their status had been revoked because they didn't have things and they were asking me why this was.

It's a complicated process. I'm just wondering, Minister, if you think it's a little bit hypocritical, this whole narrative from the Conservatives trying to make something that's very complicated as simple as just that the minister should check a box and say, “This is what it is to be indigenous.”

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I think that's a really great point from an indigenous person, which is that it should never be the minister pronouncing from this seat, or really any seat, with such few facts or information, on who is indigenous. In fact, indigeneity, as you point out, is complex.

There is an individual from a riding near me who has been raised in an adoptive family in a first nation. He is non-indigenous by birth, but he was adopted as an infant and has been fully adopted by the community. If you met him, you would not think he was indigenous. He studies indigenous issues. He speaks the language. He has been raised as an indigenous person since he was two or three months old. Even his own narrative is one of complexity. How does he find himself in this place and how does he navigate as someone who is deeply steeped in his family, his culture and his tradition, yet is fully non-indigenous by birth—by DNA?

I am really glad that you raised this point. All of this is the legacy of a colonial government that chose, in those early days, to divide people and dispossess people of land, culture, language and identity. Now we're all here grappling with how to get back to a place where indigenous people define for themselves who the members of their communities are. It's also that we make amends as a country by ensuring that there is more equity in the systems that serve us all.

Thank you.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Thank you, Minister.

In the time remaining, these are problems that we have to resolve collaboratively with first nations communities. They have their own first nations procurement organization they are trying to set up because they have identified their problems around this.

I know the question that has been answered is about what we are doing to make space for them to take control. I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about where we are in the second-generation cut-off consultation that we started with the AFN in December to address these very concerns that are being brought to this table right now, in a collaborative approach with first nations youth and with first nations communities.

Could you talk about what that process is looking like?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thank you again for your help in designing how to get this off the ground in a respectful way. Even the consultation has been designed by indigenous peoples because it is such an emotional and heated space. Ultimately, what we're talking about is families.

For example, Chief Bernard told me a very moving story that, with one of her children, her grandchildren are ordained indigenous. On the other child's lineage, those grandchildren are not, simply because of the nature of who her children chose to marry. She told me how painful that is for that family.

Those consultations are under way. I believe they're happening in a very compassionate way because we chose to design those consultations together with first nations people, so that we could get to the answers of how to support people to reunite their families.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

You can say thank you. That's about it.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Thank you, Minister.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Colleagues, that is our time.

We are going to suspend to excuse the minister and bring our next set of witnesses in.

We are suspended.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Good afternoon, everyone. We are back. Thank you for your patience.

We are not doing opening statements, I understand—wonderful. Before we start with Mr. Barrett, everyone, just be aware that IT is going to contact Ms. Guay, so please just direct your questions to the two gentlemen here in person in the meantime.

Mr. Barrett, the floor is yours. Go ahead, please, for six minutes.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

In Emily Nicholson's email of June 17, 2024, to Minister Joly's chief of staff, she wrote, “Both CNGNY HOM”—that's Mr. Clark—“and staff have been instrumental throughout this process, with the HOM providing the greenlight for the selection of the new residence.”

Do either of you have personal knowledge of Mr. Clark's involvement?

[Robin Dubeau, Acting Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Real Property and Infrastructure Solutions, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development]

Mr. Chair, no, I don't have knowledge of his involvement.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Have you spoken to Mr. Clark about this matter?

[Robin Dubeau]

No.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Who relayed to you the information about this process?

[Robin Dubeau]

It's a process that was a long process. It started 10 years ago, and all throughout those discussions there was a lot of interaction with mission staff. We had a lot of discussions with people on the ground in the real property and administration team, and that information would have come from the administration team.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

When asked how she got this information, Ms. Nicholson stated that she “engaged with the property branch”—specifically you, sir, and your team, including the gentleman sitting to your right. Did you communicate, Mr. Dubeau, or correspond with Ms. Nicholson about the summary that she had provided in her briefing note?

[Robin Dubeau]

Mr. Chair, I did.... We interact very often with the deputy minister associate office, and in this case—

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Okay, so what was the date when you had that interaction?

[Robin Dubeau]

I had a written interaction with Ms. Nicholson on June 14, when I was fulfilling a request to provide details with regard to the transaction.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

What about you, Mr. Hounzangbé?

[Franck Hounzangbé, Director General, Policy and Planning, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development]

Yes, I had an interaction with Emily Nicholson on June 16 on that matter.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

What about on the matter of the correction that she issued by email on July 25?

[Robin Dubeau]

On July 25, I had an interaction with Ms. Nicholson, but it was a request for additional information and clarification, which I provided. There was no notion of correction at that moment.