Government Operations Committee on Nov. 28th, 2024

[Charles Sousa, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

I think I have only about 50 seconds left.

To Dave Sergerie, can you talk about the resources for the entrepreneurs, start-ups, businesses, and how the program that's been established by the government over the course of the last few years enabled that to be so?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I apologize, Mr. Sergerie. This is becoming a habit. There's no time left. That was our six minutes.

Perhaps Mrs. Vignola can take that up or perhaps you can provide it in writing to us.

Mrs. Vignola, you have six minutes, please.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Sergerie, there's been a lot of talk in recent weeks about lists that indigenous organizations keep to identify truly indigenous businesses.

Wouldn't it be more effective for communities to send their lists to a central body and have them compiled there? The government could use that compilation instead of making its own list and constantly having to check.

[Dave Sergerie]

Thank you for the question.

That is precisely what was created at the First Nations of Quebec and Labrador Economic Development Commission, or CDEPNQL. It's called the ID1N directory, which bears a label that says “First Nations identification”. There are currently 500 members.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm sorry, Mr. Sergerie. I'm afraid your interpretation is not working now.

[Dave Sergerie]

Okay. Do I have to go to English?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

We won't be able to translate into French, I'm afraid.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I have a point of order, Chair.

[Dave Sergerie]

Thank you.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Given the time constraints and the IT challenges, maybe there would be agreement to have Mr. Sergerie back at some point as well. I think he has some important testimony, but we are a bit constrained. I think that might be the best way to do it.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

I'm not saying it's not important, but let's go to other witnesses.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Mrs. Vignola, I have to ask you to go to another witness, please.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I'm sorry. Just to clarify, there's not unanimous agreement because the Liberals don't want us to have him back, so I guess we just have to move a motion to bring him back at some point.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Yes.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Okay.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Mrs. Vignola, go ahead, please.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much, Mr. Sergerie.

I'm so sorry about the technical problems you're having. Can we try with the other language?

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I apologize. We're not getting any interpretation from Mrs. Vignola now.

Can you speak again, please?

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Mr. Sergerie, can we try the other language to see if interpretation is possible from English to French, since we're experiencing difficulties from French to English?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

No. We're not able to pick him up at all. That is the issue.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

All right.

I'm sorry, Mr. Sergerie, that you were having these issues.

Mr. Carignan, we've already talked about this, but I'd like to come back to the subject.

How can we ensure that an indigenous company that is contractually associated with a non-indigenous company is used to the full extent of its capabilities, and that it truly receives the revenues it is owed? In other words, that it is not used as a front?

The government tells us that it is making sure, but that is done after the fact. How could we improve that aspect?

[Denis Carignan]

The question is a bit complicated, given my level of French. So I will continue in English.

The challenge when we go with a contract—and it happens not just in government but all over the place—is that we're fairly specialized. If we win, we'll win on a bid with another partner. That partner will be the prime contractor on the contract, so the contract will be in their name, and then we will be the subcontractor.

Part of the challenge with that is that we quite often will have no visibility into what the actual terms of the contract are. If you're in a large project, sometimes the scope will change. Sometimes there's a change in features or a change in legislation, and there could be additional monies that go in and potential opportunities for ourselves as a company to put people on projects. We may or may not know about it, depending on our relationship with the client.

What would be nice for ourselves as a smaller company is if, as part of a set-aside or part of a specific initiative in some other way, we were allowed to be the prime contractor so that we could actually see the whole scope of the project. Then we would subcontract to our partner. They might be bigger than we are, but we could assess whether we're able to fill the role ourselves and grow as a company or whether we must rely on them and their expertise.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I want to make sure I understood correctly.

Let's take the example of a contract that is reserved for first nations. There's an association between a non-indigenous business and an indigenous business. For a variety of reasons, the non-indigenous company is the contractor. However, the indigenous business—which should be the contractor, since the contract is reserved for indigenous businesses—turns out to be a subcontractor. Most of the time, the company isn't familiar with the contract provisions. If there's a change and they need to hire more people, the indigenous business doesn't even know about it. Sometimes, there aren't even more people working.

How is it effective for communities not to have them at the forefront?

I don't understand how that meets the policy objectives.

[Denis Carignan]

It probably doesn't meet the objective. It is quite often just a difference of scale in the size of the company and the difference in the level of expertise of the company. For us to gain that ability to be the ones in charge of that, we need to get the experience. That's when I spoke to business acumen with regard to actually being the ones who are managing that contract.

There could also be some other requirement that's built in on the part of the organization—in this case, the government—that says, for whatever reason, that the larger non-indigenous company is the lead contractor but that we need to have the participation of the indigenous partner at the contracting table and at any of the senior leadership meetings between the government and that contractor.