Evidence of meeting #156 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was businesses.
A video is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Sometimes we hear Liberals in particular say, “Oh, it's so complicated. It's really complicated to know what's going on,” but basically what you're saying is that it's not complicated.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Okay.
I wanted to ask as well about this issue of the business list.
You have various rights holders maintaining their own lists. Meanwhile, the government has said, “No, we're going to have our own separate list.” There are people who are not on that list who are actually owners of indigenous businesses and there are people who are on that list who are not owners of indigenous businesses.
It seems to me that this is one of those things that gets called complicated when it's fairly simple. Can't the government, instead of creating its own list, simply say, “We are going to have a mechanism whereby those doing procurement can see the lists that we recognize?”
Legitimate nations have their own lists, and we could look at their lists. Organizations that credibly represent Indigenous peoples are also producing lists. Rather than duplicating this work or choosing only one list, the government would simply have the ability to see who's on everybody else's list, and that would be the basis of identifying an indigenous business. Wouldn't that be a lot simpler?
Senior Advisor, Manitoba Métis Federation
Yes, it would be a lot simpler.
I was here when Ron Irwin introduced this procurement strategy. It wasn't very effective for a lot of years. Then, when the government came in and put in targets and timetables, it started to work. The problem was that the database of businesses was contaminated right from the start. The fact that the minister said that there are 1,100 that they just kicked out of the database says something about that database as a whole.
In the United States, they created these sector councils. It was Nixon who brought in section 8(a), the business and procurement requirements for minorities, and they created 49 different business councils that do verification of companies. We brought in the Canadian Aboriginal Minority Supplier Council. We were there when we set it up, and it does verification of minority businesses and indigenous businesses. There's a way to self-regulate it, and Lorne has a point of view on this that's important.
November 28th, 2024 / 11:20 a.m.
Senior Economic Advisor to the President, Manitoba Métis Federation
I'll weigh in very briefly, Marc, and Mr. Chair.
There are two fundamental questions. One is verification of majority ownership, and any party with rights to that company's information can determine that. It's on the validation piece related to identity and related to connectivity to a given indigenous nation. That validation process, in my view, sits best when it's connected with a self-governing indigenous government like the Manitoba Métis Federation.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
I guess the point, though, is that the government doesn't have to do this work of taking other people's lists and putting them together themselves. They could just say at the point of procurement that they have a mechanism for accessing all of the lists. They could ask whether it's on a list, whose list it is on and whether they can verify that it's a real indigenous business because it's on a real list.
This seems so simple, and yet it's being called complicated.
Liberal
Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to our witnesses for joining us today.
Maybe I can direct this to any of the guests who'd like to share answers, one by one.
On the 5% minimum target for indigenous businesses, a lot of it was in response to calls from first nations, Inuit and Métis business leaders.
Can you express how important it is and how it's been received within the nations that you're mostly working with, and other indigenous leaders that you're working with? What message does this send to indigenous communities from the federal government?
Senior Advisor, Manitoba Métis Federation
The 5% minimum is one thing, but we negotiated 15% of the construction with SkyAlyne, the air force training contract, which is a 25-year contract. The minimum is important, but it's not a ceiling either. We think that this project can be improved, but it's all in how it gets done.
Mr. Genuis' question about verifying who is and who is not an indigenous business is critical to the success of that program, and it should be built in to the overall procurement system.
As an Individual
It's incredibly important.
The worst thing that could happen, Mr. Bains, is that the government could say, “Hey, it's broken. It's not working, so let's just stop. Let's not do it anymore.” That's been the history for us. Non-first nations, non-indigenous institutions make mistakes with first nations and indigenous programs and projects and say, “You see? It doesn't work. Let's not do it anymore.” That's not the right path forward.
The right path forward is to take these baby steps forward and to start turning them into adult steps, and getting towards actual “reconcili-action”, where we're starting to move the needle, where we start looking at the data and we start seeing that there are more indigenous peoples involved in the economy of this country, where we start seeing that....
Do you know what solves the rampant food insecurity of first nations? It's jobs. Jobs go a long way toward feeding children, 50% of whom in B.C. are food insecure.
We don't want to step backward. We want to step forward and we want to work together. I think that's a pretty universal sentiment.
Liberal
Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC
As you said, it's not the ceiling. We've heard in certain departments that there has been more than just the 5%.
On the same question, maybe we can hear from Mr. LeClair.
Senior Economic Advisor to the President, Manitoba Métis Federation
I'm happy to add.
The 5% mandate has been exceptionally well received by Red River Métis businesses and our community. It's now a question of access to opportunity. Next week, we are hosting a business expo with 275 attendees, connecting Red River Métis businesses with Government of Canada departments and PSPC. These are prime contractors that have contracts with the federal government who have inherited that 5% mandate. We're exceptionally excited about it. It will change lives for us.
Liberal
Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC
I'll stay with you, Mr. Pelletier.
In your view, who's best placed to determine if a business should be eligible to compete for contracts through the procurement strategy for indigenous businesses?
We've talked a lot about the lists and who should be on the list and these sorts of things. Can you express something?
Senior Economic Advisor to the President, Manitoba Métis Federation
Thank you for the question, Mr. Bains.
To me, there's a need for clarity. I think a previous committee member asked a question about who makes a determination of who holds the list, who authorizes the lists and who legitimizes or validates the list holders. I think that's the crux of it. It's now a shift from the lists themselves to the authorizations around list holders.
I think that's where we come in. From the perspective of the Manitoba Métis Federation, as a self-governing nation with a well-established business directory that is verified and validated, we are looking for that step of acknowledgement by Canada to say, “Yes, we authorize and recognize that the list holder is solid as an indigenous government and from a process perspective.”
I think that's the next step that needs to be taken. It's to ensure—again, to the previous committee member's point—that the federal department procurement officer, who's looking at that contract and at businesses to contract with, has access to what has been pre-established by a recognized list of business directory holders.
Liberal
Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC
Just very quickly, do you think indigenous businesses are aware? Is it widely known that this program is available?
Senior Economic Advisor to the President, Manitoba Métis Federation
In our Red River Métis business community, it's very well known.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
Thank you, Mr. Bains.
We'll go to Mrs. Vignola for six minutes. Then we'll suspend to vote.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Mr. LeClair, Mr. Pelletier, on November 16, we marked the 139th anniversary of a very sad event, the one related to Mr. Riel's hanging. I wanted to offer you and the Métis community my full support. In Quebec, a former premier once said, “We barked hard against that hanging. He was called a dog.” My heart goes out to you for that. That was 139 years ago, but it's still fresh in our minds.
My first question is for Mr. Beaton, but you can add your comments. I'm sure you'll also have something to say.
Mr. Beaton, you said that it was sometimes necessary for indigenous businesses to partner with non-indigenous businesses for financial considerations. We've heard that from others as well. It's a question of cash flow, and one of the reasons is the Indian Act. It's very difficult for businesses operating on reserves to get financing from traditional banks.
How can we ensure that the indigenous business really has a role to play in the contract obtained as part of an alliance with a non-indigenous business, both in terms of the tasks to accomplish and in terms of revenue sharing? How do we ensure that is fair and true?
As an Individual
Thank you for the question. That is an excellent question, and you've somewhat answered it by pointing out the problems that exist in accessing capital. In our survey through our non-profit association network, access to capital—in other words, being able to go to a bank and get a loan—was the number one problem, followed closely by access to land and having trained people.
Since I was a child, the promise made in partnership with non-indigenous parties has been that they were temporary and that they would be training the next generation of first nations or indigenous people to take their place. What I've seen over my lifetime is that this is an empty promise that has not happened.
The problems you laid out could be solved through policy. The parts of the Indian Act that are very restrictive are often no longer enforced, and institutions, including the government, can make decisions that are very progressive through policy changes that open the doors to access to capital, for example. I have seen that. I've gone to battle with banks and seen major policy shifts that have opened those doors.
I am a status Indian. I live off reserve, and it's still very difficult for me to get financing because that section of the Indian Act is constantly held as an excuse for why I can't access financing, even though my assets are all off reserve.
Finally, we need to move to indigenous-led as a way, as a standard, so that we have indigenous people making the decisions on a daily basis. That is the definition of indigenous-led, because if we continue to allow non-indigenous controlling interests to have all the space to make the daily decisions, what we see is that indigenous peoples are not given space and opportunities to advance and to take those jobs and positions within those initiatives, contracts and opportunities.
Bloc
Julie Vignola Bloc Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Thank you.
We are starting to put financial levers in place to support Indigenous businesses. These tools come from Indigenous communities to ensure their development and autonomy.
How can the government provide better support for these initiatives to ensure greater visibility within communities?
How could the Indian Act be amended to ensure the autonomy of communities instead of constraining them? I don't quite know how to describe that law.
I'll start with Mr. LeClair. If there isn't enough time for a complete answer, I'll come back to it in my next turn.