Evidence of meeting #158 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was procurement.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
No. This day is just jinxed. You're not coming through well.
I just found out that Mr. Boulerice has changed some settings, so he might be good to go. Let's go back to him while we try to get you sorted out, Mr. Bains.
My apologies, everyone.
Mr. Boulerice, let's try again, please.
NDP
Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC
Thank you, Chair.
I hope that, now, everything is working properly and that interpretation can continue.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
No. I'm afraid it's not working.
Mr. Bains' mic is not working, so perhaps we can go to Mr. Kusmierczyk. He's next on the Liberal list.
Go ahead, Mr. Kusmierczyk.
Liberal
Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.
Thank you so much to the witnesses for their testimony today.
Mr. Obed, you mentioned large-scale natural resource projects and the opportunities they represent to indigenous communities. How does the federal procurement strategy for indigenous businesses fit into that opportunity? How does it help leverage the opportunity that's there in resource extraction?
President, Inuit Tapiriit Kanatami
If you think of the holistic opportunities in Inuit Nunangat, government is by far the largest employer within our jurisdictions. Natural resource extraction is also a significant part of Inuit Nunangat economies. The ability to create a business and then stage that business and grow it is so different from in the south. Often the large-scale construction work, even some of the resource extraction work and construction, is seasonal. In operations phases, often it's year-round, but the opportunities are not spread out over 365 days, if you will.
The opportunities that we have to create businesses that can then go after federal contracts—I'm thinking of the opportunities that will come to pass for defence and sovereignty in particular—are sometimes very similar to natural resource extraction, especially in infrastructure across Inuit Nunangat in terms of construction and operation and maintenance. Many of our businesses provide site services to mining projects or construction opportunities for mining projects. That links in with the investment opportunities Canada has in the Arctic for increased infrastructure. We're looking to create a scenario where there's certainty within our business community that if you create a business and you grow it, there will be opportunities. Procurement from government contracts is one part of your business imagination or opportunities, and the natural resource sector is another.
Inuit have been champions of economic development, but within the framework of our modern treaties and the compliance of all businesses to our land claim agreements and the provisions within our agreements about the positive relationship between these projects and Inuit self-determination.
Liberal
Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
I appreciate that very much. We often talk about the procurement program just in terms of contracts and economic opportunities, but this is also a training opportunity. It's an opportunity to build a talent pipeline in indigenous communities.
Could you perhaps talk a little bit about how the procurement strategy for indigenous businesses boosts skills development and the talent pipeline in indigenous communities? How important is it for that?
President, Inuit Tapiriit Kanatami
A lot of business opportunities flow to not just private Inuit entities but also rights-holding institutions. We have development corporations in each of our regions. Sometimes there are up to three in one of our jurisdictions in Nunavut. Their stakeholders, the people they work for, are Inuit. Often their boards have obligations, such as to hire a percentage of Inuit and to have aspirations that would have Inuit in senior management or leading projects, that are above and beyond government requirements. It is an essential part of their reason for being. Having more access to government contracts through procurement allows for these types of companies to flourish instead of those who are fly-in and fly-out, who don't have a mandate to increase Inuit employment and Inuit participation in the workforce, and who don't return dividends back to Inuit communities.
The increased participation of Inuit in federal procurement allows for Inuit self-determination to fully take shape. In our aspiration for self-governance, it also allows for us to take care of our citizens in a more complete way than we do now.
Conservative
Liberal
Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Okay.
I imagine it also strengthens the networks within indigenous communities in terms of mentorship and strengthens opportunities for indigenous communities. Is that correct?
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
Thank you for filling in, Mr. Kusmierczyk.
We'll go to Ms. Gill for two and a half minutes. Then we'll suspend to vote.
Go ahead, ma'am.
Bloc
Marilène Gill Bloc Manicouagan, QC
Thank you, Chair.
Obviously, fraud was one of my concerns. Work is being done, then, on the real 5% and the effective 5%. I'm worried too. I come from a northern riding where 15% of the population is indigenous and where businesses are very dynamic and innovative. However, I know that their location can make it harder to compete. I was wondering whether, in the allocation process, it is sometimes more difficult for indigenous businesses to participate fully. Indeed, that competition might not necessarily be the same because of resources. For example, you mentioned shorter seasons. It's the same in my riding. I'd like to hear what you have to say about that, about the current situation and what can be done about it.
Earlier, you didn't have enough time to answer a question and you said there were many details to provide. If you ever want to complete your answer, you can pass it on to the committee. We'd be very grateful.
President, Inuit Tapiriit Kanatami
In relation to procurement, there are all sorts of ways for status quo to be maintained. I think what we look to the federal government for is to identify some of those challenges that historically have excluded indigenous peoples and try to break down those barriers. It can be anything from the scope of the particular tender, or the RFP, to the bonding issues. There are all sorts of ways in which you can write indigenous peoples out of an opportunity and, if you imagine a large corporation that perhaps governments have worked with before, into that particular opportunity.
We know that there is subjectivity in all of this, in the way in which procurement happens. What we're looking for is equity, a fair space to be able to present our businesses in a way that doesn't preclude them from getting contracts.
Bloc
Marilène Gill Bloc Manicouagan, QC
I wouldn't have thought so, but I still have some time.
You talked about accountability as well. I know that's one of the missing pieces. What do you recommend? Since we have very little time, you can follow up in writing with that information also. Precisely because accountability is lacking, we aren't necessarily in a position to know who received how much, for instance.
President, Inuit Tapiriit Kanatami
Thanks.
I'll pass the floor to Will to answer this one.
Director, Legal Services, Inuit Tapiriit Kanatami
Improving accountability is one reason that we focused efforts on defining an Inuit business. It makes it easier to track, whether or not businesses that the government would report as indigenous or Inuit fall within that definition. As a threshold matter, getting information out of the government in terms of how contracts are awarded requires a robust definition, which is what we have worked toward to date. The next step is, again, getting some degree of transparency in reporting.
The flip side of that, on remedy, is broader recognition of the relevance of fraud within this space—we noted that there were instances of fraud, just not in the space of procurement or economic development to date—as well as potential Criminal Code reforms, which would work as an analogue to similar laws in other countries to prevent organizational or corporate fraud in order to secure contracts under the cloak of being an indigenous business.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
Thank you very much.
We are now going to suspend for a few minutes. We'll do our vote.
Mr. Bains, we'll try to get you set up as well while we're on suspension.
Thanks, everyone.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
Thank you, everyone, for your patience while we voted.
We're now going to the NDP. If you're keeping scoresheets, we're in our second round. We're going to combine the two rounds, so you have eight and a half minutes.
Welcome back, Ms. Idlout. The floor is yours for eight and a half minutes.
NDP
Lori Idlout NDP Nunavut, NU
Qujannamiik, Iksivautaq.
Thank you to the witnesses for appearing on this important matter.
My first set of questions is directed to Dr. Jaime. I want to begin by acknowledging the extensive work that you have done over the past two years in leading the University of Saskatchewan on indigenous identity. I congratulate you on the recent agreement between Inuit Tapiriit Kanatami and USask on this path. I think this is such great, important work. I'm glad to see both of you here.
Dr. Jaime, I'd like to first ask about undertaking the work of indigenous identity and verification in a culturally appropriate and sensitive manner. It feels as though there is a rush to find the villains of these stories, and that comes at the price of undue attention and burden on indigenous peoples and nations. Can you describe some of the considerations that individuals, organizations or institutions should consider before approaching an indigenous group about an individual's citizenship in a specific nation?
Vice-Provost, Indigenous Engagement, University of Saskatchewan
We had feedback about whether or not asking for documentation is a burden upon the individual and then the verification being adjudicated by the community itself. The feedback we received directly from the community was that, rather than having the university, which has no business making these determinations, they'd prefer that the community make the determination. They are willing to take on that burden, the ones that we had that conversation with. It's their sovereign right, and we're honouring and respecting that.
With the agreement among Métis Nation-Saskatchewan, ITK and other first nations communities within Saskatchewan, they've all been very forthcoming and responsive to our requests. Rather than our making that decision, we ask them what documentation they want us to accept. There's always a burden, but I think that indigenous people are always willing to take on the burden to ensure that the space is taken up by indigenous people.
NDP
Lori Idlout NDP Nunavut, NU
Qujannamiik.
Dr. Jaime, I know that your work is very motivated by high-profile cases of identity fraud at the University of Saskatchewan. Without a doubt, there are instances of fraud at other institutions or organizations that are completely unaware of the fraud that's taking place in front of them or are unwilling to do the work because it's too embarrassing or inconvenient.
What would you say to those people who are either unmotivated to do this work or don't care to do it? I ask this specifically because we need to find out why it's so important that non-indigenous peoples undertake this work, even if it might do some reputational damage.
Vice-Provost, Indigenous Engagement, University of Saskatchewan
That's an excellent question.
It's important because what we're seeing now and for the last three and a half years are a lot of conversations about this being an indigenous-specific issue, and what, as indigenous people, are we going to do about it. While that is true—we did have conversations as academics together in two different forums—we now realize so much more about these.... Institutions across Canada are making these decisions with non-indigenous people at the helm, so how do we help to ensure they're making the right decisions? Non-indigenous folks need to be brought to the table to have that conversation. That's the next phase of this conversation.
Our task force that developed this policy was all indigenous. Our standing committee is indigenous. One of the messages that I deliver whenever I'm doing this presentation on our policy is that, as institutions, they have to trust their indigenous employees, decision-makers and senior leaders, which was not the case in the past, and make sure they're resourcing the opportunity for them to do this work and putting them in positions that are decision-making and not just advisory.
It's really important to have these conversations with non-indigenous people—educating, dialoguing, making sure they understand, and motivating them to do the work, as you said—because we know, as the president said, that fraud is fraud, and there have to be consequences to taking up indigenous space when you yourself are not indigenous. Therefore, in holding them accountable, the institution has to hold the line.
NDP
Lori Idlout NDP Nunavut, NU
Qujannamiik.
Dr. Jaime, in your experience in undertaking this work, what is the ability of first nations or Métis groups to respond to requests for verification? I would imagine that, for well-established groups like ITK, this work can be challenging but it can be done. However, for nations with little capacity or resources, for example, in the far north of Saskatchewan, it can be quite challenging.
Vice-Provost, Indigenous Engagement, University of Saskatchewan
We know that we're asking a lot of indigenous communities, first nations communities specifically, that have small numbers and/or lack of capacity within the band office to answer the questions, and so we're willing to provide them with support with whatever they need, however we can support them. As an institution, we have those resources to be able to provide....
We also don't have thousands of requests from the smaller first nation groups, but once we have had a conversation with them, we don't have to keep going back and forth. When they say, “We'd like you to accept a status card and a letter from us,” then the request actually comes from the member itself, not from the institution. The member who's seeking that indigenous space is contacting their own community to receive the letter. Again, we're helping the indigenous communities as much as we can, supporting them and making sure that we're collaborating with them in every possible way.
NDP
Lori Idlout NDP Nunavut, NU
Qujannamiik.
Just to shift to what others need to do, how can we make sure, for example, that the federal government is aided in managing identification requests? For example, if first nations are under-resourced to deal with these matters, how can we make sure that our federal government departments are informed and educated to ensure that they do need to provide proper resourcing to help first nations address these matters?