Evidence of meeting #158 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was procurement.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Bloc
Marilène Gill Bloc Manicouagan, QC
Before you suspend, I want to point out that the motion as written in French does not reflect the English version. It's not really French at all. I will have to translate it myself. The French version pretty well says nothing.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
It's a common issue we have here, I'm afraid.
We'll suspend for a minute.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
I call the meeting back to order.
I believe the amendment, though it is a bit of a stretch, is in order, Mr. Genuis.
I'll start a speaking list on the amendment. While we're doing that, our wonderful clerk is trying to translate it properly because the government can't seem to, apparently.
Go ahead, Mr. Genuis.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Yes, Chair.
This is just to say that our motion is a very clear statement that those who engage in indigenous identity fraud should be barred from accessing government contracts. That would be completely neutered by this government amendment, which no longer says they should be barred, but instead says they should be subject to the ineligibility and suspension policy. This is to say nothing at all, because every applicant is subject to the policies of the government. It turns this into a complete and total nothing.
I'm disappointed in the government. I thought it could be a clear-cut matter and we would say that indigenous identity fraud is fraud, and if you engage in fraud, you shouldn't be able to get government contracts.
The government is apparently not prepared to say that. We're going to vote against the amendment and in favour of the motion. Again, let's move on with that.
Liberal
Charles Sousa Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
The point of our deliberations with regard to the work that's being done, for those who are watching, is to determine and provide recommendations for how we should proceed. We're now trying to preclude those recommendations. We're trying to exempt the witnesses and all the work that's being done by circumventing that work.
The idea is to provide this committee with the opportunity to engage with the witnesses, have the discussion, have the appropriate debate and then come forward with recommendations. I presume this would be one of the recommendations made by the opposition as it proceeds with the final report.
That's how I view that motion.
You're taking an extraordinary step without giving the privilege and the right to those who are here before us to provide some recommendations. In fact, one of my questions to the witnesses was about that very issue. I requested of them their recommendations for our final report and how to best proceed going forward with regard to the activities.
I think the motion as it was done originally precludes that process from taking steps.
I get that he's using this committee as a film studio to do so many of the other things he's doing on the side. I would appreciate focusing just on what we're trying to do here for the benefit of the indigenous community. That's why we made the appropriate amendments. It was to ensure that the step is taken.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
Thanks.
Next on the list is Mr. Kusmierczyk. After Mr. Kusmierczyk, I don't have anyone.
Liberal
Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Thank you.
Yes, I think there's agreement that this is an important recommendation. I don't think we disagree with the intent of the motion. However, it raises a question for me. This is a recommendation that ought to be in the report. We are studying indigenous procurement here at committee. We've had a number of meetings. We've had a number of witnesses. The purpose of this for us as a committee is to bring forward recommendations.
I think my colleague's motion does two things. One, it skips a very important step along the process—
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
I'm going to interrupt you for a moment.
We are sending out the proper French translation now, Madame Gill and everyone else.
December 5th, 2024 / 12:55 p.m.
Liberal
Irek Kusmierczyk Liberal Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Again, my disagreement is not with the spirit of the motion that Mr. Genuis has brought forward. It's simply that it skips a very important step, which is that this recommendation ought to be part of the study and the report we are conducting here as a committee. It ought to be first in the study report, and it ought to be part of the recommendations we bring forward as a committee.
It raises a question about the purpose of the committee if the things we discuss and the recommendations we bring forward completely skip the study and the report this committee does and they go directly to the House.
That's what we're trying to address in this amendment. It is to say this is an absolutely valid recommendation. It's important. It just needs to be, first and foremost, included in this committee's work and in this committee's report. Subsequent to that, the committee has a choice...well, it doesn't have a choice, but it votes on whether or not to submit the report to the House. That's the discussion. That's the normal process.
Again, I don't object to the spirit of Mr. Genuis' motion, but I strongly feel that we're skipping a step here. We're undermining the work of this committee in doing that. That recommendation belongs, first and foremost, as part of the recommendations of this committee in a report.
Those are our objections to the original motion. I hope Mr. Genuis can find common ground and support this amendment because, again, we're trying to do the same thing. We agree with the thrust and the spirit of the motion, but we believe it skips a step and it ought to be a part of the committee report.
Liberal
Charles Sousa Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
Just to be clear and to reaffirm what my colleague said, we're trying to avoid this motion because, basically, it's a procedural game. The point of creating a committee report is to do just that, and what we're doing here is providing individual recommendations each time, which undermines establishing a report.
I think it's somewhat serious. We shouldn't trivialize this motion, because we see it as being a procedural game. We really shouldn't behave that way, again, with respect to the witnesses, who have been called before us to have the opportunity to comment and then put forward appropriate recommendations. as opposed to doing a one-off each time.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
I have no one else on the speaking list for the amendment, so we shall go to a vote on the amendment.
There is a tie. I vote against the amendment.
(Amendment negatived: nays 6; yeas 5)
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
We're back to our original motion.
I'm going to excuse our witnesses. Thank you very much. I appreciate all of your testimony today, as well as all your patience as we fought with our IT process. We hope to see you back at OGGO one day.
Mr. Obed, this is especially for you, but I think Dr. Jaime mentioned this as well. If you have any recommendations of documents or reports that you wish to share with us, send them in to the clerk and we'll make sure they're distributed to the committee and are part of our considerations in our report.
Thank you again.
We're back to the original motion. Do I have a speaking list for the original motion?
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
I'm trying to make sure I understand. Can we get a two-minute suspension?
No. Go ahead.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
I think the motion is great the way it is, but I think there might have been agreement, if there's consensus that allows us to proceed with this, to add at the end “and the committee request a government response”. That has the effect of addressing the government's concerns about the possibility of concurrence, but it still involves us reporting to the House on this issue.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
We are back.
I understand that Mr. Genuis has an amendment or a friendly agreement.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Yes.
The agreement is that we add the words at the end of the motion, “and the committee request a government response”.
Liberal
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
The motion would read:
That the committee report to the House its recommendation that companies who engage in Indigenous Identity Fraud should be barred from accessing any government contracts, and the committee request a government response.
Liberal
Charles Sousa Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
How is that different from putting that recommendation in the report?
Conservative