Government Operations Committee on Dec. 12th, 2024

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I doubt it, but go ahead.

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

The fact that you're asking those questions about integrity also suggests that you value the—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Sir, just give me a letter grade. It's not a difficult question. I'll get to the difficult ones later.

How would you rate your performance and the performance of the government's procurement department over the last nine years? Just give me a letter grade.

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

In the last nine years, I can speak, obviously, to the thousands of lives that were saved during COVID-19 because of vaccine—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I'll give you 10 seconds to give me a letter grade.

Go ahead.

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

We can also speak about the national shipbuilding strategy, which is sustaining the jobs of about 20,000 workers every year. I can speak about the dental care program—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Okay, the time is up.

Honestly, if I were the minister and I had your record, I would not want to give a letter grade either.

Minister, if a third party auditor flags that there's fraud on a particular procurement file and recommends that it be referred to the RCMP, what should the government do in that case?

It's another fairly easy question, I think.

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

What it should do is exactly what you're probably also thinking. It should take those allegations very seriously, and expect and demand that the public service, independently of political interference, do the job that they need to do.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

What is that job? If an independent auditor says there's fraud and they think it should be referred to the RCMP, the public service should then refer it to the RCMP. Should they?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Well, the public service is a big.... Not every—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Sir, we're still on the easy stuff.

If a third party auditor says, hypothetically, that a procurement file involving the Canadian Health Care Agency involved fraud, and that third party auditor says, in a meeting with multiple public servants from multiple departments, that they think it involves fraud and they think it should be referred to the RCMP, should they take it seriously and refer it to the RCMP, or should they take it seriously and try to bury it?

What would you suggest?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

You spoke about a hypothetical. Hypothetical cases are not truly useful cases to discuss in such general terms. I think you need to be more specific as to what exactly you have in mind.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I have in mind the case that this committee heard about this week from Garry Hartle. He's an independent auditor who brought a room full of public servants evidence of indigenous identity fraud—fraud on the government—years ago and recommended that the case be referred to the RCMP. The government decided, in his words, that “they didn't want any trouble”, and decided to bury it instead of referring it to the RCMP.

Do you think that was a good idea or a bad idea?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

MP Genuis, this is a great question. I heard you ask it exactly just a few days ago of Minister Hajdu.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I look forward to a great answer.

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

She provided all the answers that you were correctly expecting of her because it's in her file. It's her department. You know that you can ask her those questions directly.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

The PSPC officials were in the room, sir. Your officials were in the room.

At a basic level, in terms of setting the tone, now would be a good time for you to advise your officials and the public that when they become aware of instances of fraud, they should refer that fraud to the RCMP. You seem unwilling to say that.

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

I can say it in French if it works less well in English. A few days ago, we had a meeting with Minister Hajdu, at which you were present, Mr. Genuis. You asked exactly the same questions, and she gave you the right answers. If you want to have a conversation with Ms. Hajdu, you can continue to have it, but you already had one just a few days ago.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I welcome you speaking in either language. You have provided answers in neither.

It's a case of fraud that a third party auditor informs government officials about. Since your officials were in the room, should they have given that information to the RCMP or buried it?

I wonder, frankly, how many other cases there are.

Can you just clearly tell your officials and the public that instances of fraud, when officials become aware of them, should be referred to the RCMP, yes or no?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

I've answered this question a number of times, Mr. Genuis. In addition, Ms. Hajduanswered the same question several times just a few days ago. I think you just have to go back and look at her answers, and it will be pretty straightforward.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

It's utterly incredible that you're not willing to say that fraud should be referred to the RCMP and you can't even give a simple yes to a very simple question. That's truly unbelievable.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you, gentlemen.

We'll go to Mrs. Atwin to finish up the hour, please.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much, Minister and officials, for joining us today.

I'll switch gears a little bit. I'm really proud to represent a vibrant bilingual community. I'm from New Brunswick, which is our only constitutionally protected bilingual province.

Vote 1b includes $9.6 million “for the Translation Bureau to provide linguistic services to Parliament”. Can you speak about the importance of the translation bureau for minority-language communities like those in New Brunswick and also, in general, the importance of interpretation services for the workings of Parliament?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Thank you. We know that you're a proud representative of your riding and that you have the ability to be a proud representative of the diversity of the people in your riding. We can feel it in your values, and we can see it in your actions.

Indeed, we're fortunate to have a large bilingual country where people, particularly in the Canadian government, have the right to express themselves in the official language of their choice. The investments in the translation bureau that are part of the estimates are absolutely essential investments.

I know that some of the interpreters are listening today. We know how difficult and decisive their work is for our work, and we are grateful to them. They need tools to do their job, tools to protect their health, particularly their hearing health. As you said so well, it enables francophones who have the opportunity to live in your riding and other francophones across the country, particularly those here in the House of Commons, to do their work in support of their communities.