Government Operations Committee on Dec. 17th, 2024

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

That's interesting to me, because you talked in your testimony about confidence in institutions, which is something I'm very concerned about in terms of democracy right now in Canada and, quite frankly, across the planet.

I'm curious. From your perspective in the specific work you do, what does it mean when you have a whistle-blower or somebody come forward with something really important, and then you have to say, “You have to wait a long time”? I want to know what that does to the person who's taken that big risk to step forward. What does that feel like in your office, and how do you address that issue?

The other factor is, of course, that when it finally becomes public way later, it must build a lot of frustration in the public as well.

I'm wondering if you could address the impacts it has on whistle-blowers and on Canadians in terms of trust in the institutions that hold people to account.

[Harriet Solloway]

Thank you for the question.

Of course, the effect of the delay weighs heavily on the whistle-blower, depending on the nature of the case. Sometimes a whistle-blower will divulge something that has nothing to do with them personally, but is something they know about. They care enough about it to have brought it forward and they want to see it addressed.

Frankly, we could probably never do it quickly enough, because when people are upset about something, they want it addressed. The fact is that it lingers longer than it should. Certainly, I would say for a reprisal case, it's terrible if it takes too long, because that has an impact on individuals.

I also want to take the time to underscore the impact on those who are accused of having committed wrongdoings under the act. It is not easy for them to live under that cloud for a year or whatever period of time, because that cloud follows them around, and not all of our cases end up with founded wrongdoing, so it's not fair to anybody. It really isn't fair to anybody.

In terms of how that impacts the Canadian public, if people perceive that things did not happen in a reasonable time frame, they have to wonder whether it's theatre or it's real.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks very much.

We'll go virtually to Mrs. Block for five minutes, please.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Welcome to our committee this morning, Ms. Solloway.

From April 2020 to November 2024, there has been a 10-fold increase in cases submitted to your office. You mentioned this drastic increase and even suggested that it will become the new normal. I note that of the number of submissions you have, it seems that only one-third led to active investigations. You've already commented that you triage those and sometimes encourage individuals to take their case to another body to get a resolution.

Did I hear you say that once you've determined that a complaint has been rightly placed with your office, you have had to pick and choose which of those cases you will investigate and then put the rest on hold due to a lack of resources?

[Harriet Solloway]

We don't pick and choose. We choose all the ones that meet the criteria established in the act.

In terms of when we start to take action, yes, decisions have to be made, because we simply cannot do all of them right away. That doesn't impact the decision-making process in terms of whether or not we should investigate, but of course it impacts whether or not we actually can.

I'm not sure if that answers your question.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Yes, thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Mrs. Block, I'm going to interrupt quickly. I've frozen the clock.

We have bells ringing. Can we have unanimous consent to continue?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Wonderful. The clock has restarted.

Go ahead, Mrs. Block.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

You also stated, “justice delayed is justice denied”, and I completely understand that. I know you've asked for an immediate increase, as my colleague noted. I would say that culture eats strategy for breakfast.

How convinced are you that your requests are being taken seriously?

[Harriet Solloway]

You know, I'm an optimist. I have to be. I think there's a general understanding of how vital the mandate of PSIC is to ensuring there's trust in the federal public service. The extent to which this translates into a budget is a different story.

That's why, in my opening remarks, as you might have noted, I proposed that we move toward a more independent funding mechanism, one that is more directly aligned with Parliament, rather than through ministries. I believe this is an issue that has long been around with respect to agents of Parliament. Some of my colleagues, including the access to information commissioner, among others, have been pressing for the same sort of mechanism.

All the goodwill in the world won't work if the system is not built to work. I think the goodwill and good intentions are there, but the system to protect the appearance of independence—and also for efficiency's sake, in my view—really needs to be direct to Parliament in some way or another.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you, Ms. Solloway.

I also want to note that I wrote to you regarding the cases of alleged reprisal actions taken against individuals involved in the ArriveCAN scandal. They were critical of leadership at the CBSA, only to experience some serious repercussions.

I know you stated that you cannot comment on an ongoing investigation. Are you able to at least update us on where you are in the process of those investigations, perhaps with a timeline?

[Harriet Solloway]

I cannot give you a timeline. I can tell you that it is among our active investigations.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Okay. Thank you.

Have you had any issues getting the department to co-operate or comply with any requests in regard to your investigations?

[Harriet Solloway]

At this time, I have no comment on that.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Okay.

I have a last question: During the course of an investigation, if you discover new information or if new information is provided, are you able to expand the investigation you have undertaken in order to take that information into consideration?

[Harriet Solloway]

We can, absolutely. We have done that.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Okay. Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you, Mrs. Block.

We'll go to Mr. Kusmierczyk.

It was just a quorum call, by the way. Thanks very much.

Go ahead, sir.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you so much, Ms. Solloway and Mr. Radford, for being here today.

We listened to the comments around the table. We're all in agreement that the work of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner to strengthen accountability and transparency in our government and public service is absolutely vital. I just want to say thank you for your dedication and your excellent work.

We hear the comments around the table, but at the same time, last week, in the House of Commons, we were discussing the supplementary estimates (B), meaning the budget. It contained funding for your office. There was a request for about $300,000. The Conservative Party was the only party that voted against providing $300,000 for your office, which was your ask.

I want to ask you whether you can comment on this. What impact would it have on your work and office if, as the Conservatives did, we had voted to withhold that $300,000 from your office?

[Harriet Solloway]

I'm not sure that I totally understand the question. If the question is about what would have happened had our budget ask not been approved, first, I would have been in major trouble, because I've already basically spent the money or plan to spend it. We would have had to seriously cut back even more between now and the end of March.

When we made that budget request, by the way, it was about several weeks after I had arrived, and we had not yet done a full analysis of the trend. The ask was based on a very limited knowledge of where we were going in terms of the number of cases with which we would be seized. I would say that it's not even the minimum of what we need.

It's a great help; I'm grateful for the money. We were able to move to a different case management system, because we needed one; the other one was about to collapse. That will also enable us to get better statistics and information to this committee in the future.

It's definitely funding that we needed and that we still need. Unfortunately, it seems that it's a drop in the bucket compared with what we really need.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you.

You mentioned that there were 270 disclosures, which is a considerable increase from previous years. Can you tell us what is driving that increase, in your estimation?

[Harriet Solloway]

In my estimation, I think it's a greater awareness that we exist and a greater trust that the office has built up over the years, as well as a greater sense of responsibility to blow the whistle when people see something wrong. I think it's a combination of things.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

In addition to your office's investigating the disclosures, you do a lot of community outreach and public sector outreach. Can you speak a little bit about that part of your work?

[Harriet Solloway]

It's important. If public sector employees or the public—because the public can also file disclosures with our office—doesn't know that we exist, we will not get disclosures. We will not get whistle-blowers coming forward. It's a long row to hoe.

Our small team, in the last two years, was composed of three people. I understand that before this, there were one or two. They've done an amazing job of availing themselves of different gatherings to spread the word, but a lot more work has to be done. We want people coming forward and we need people to know that there's a place where they can come. Our ask in this off-cycle budget was also for more resources for communications, because nobody will come forward if they don't know that there's a mechanism for it.