Government Operations Committee on May 17th, 2022

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Mr. Bains.

We will now go to Mrs. Vignola for two and a half minutes.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Valois, I'm going to ask you some brief questions.

We discussed the labour and training shortage earlier. As far as you know, do businesses that hire machinists and aerospace workers have internal training programs or agreements with professional, college and university training centres to establish the necessary conditions for the next generation of machinists and workers?

[Guillaume Valois]

Yes, the activities of the Comité sectoriel de main-d'œuvre en aérospatiale and the École des métiers de l'aérospatiale de Montréal, which share the same premises, are a striking example involving many partnerships to promote the sector. There are also Aéro Montréal and Aéro Emploi, which are working very hard to attract the next generation of workers to the occupations of the future in the aerospace sector. A lot of good things are being done in that area.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

As you noted earlier, we often see aircraft stored in deserts, and we wonder why they're there.

Current commercial and defence fleets are being modernized. Do you know what will be done with the old aircraft?

Could those aircraft be recycled here, particularly in Quebec, which is becoming a leader in aircraft recycling? Have you seen any sign of that kind of program here?

[Guillaume Valois]

Two SMEs are engaged in aircraft recycling operations here in Quebec. They're headquartered at Mirabel airport, are really just starting up their operations and need support. They're the only two SMEs in Canada that have all the necessary certification to carry on recycling operations and the upgrading and resale of used aircraft parts and components. They obviously need assistance in taking on more work and recruiting new clients.

About a year ago, Airbus indicated that it was looking for new partners to expand its aircraft recycling operations around the world. Couldn't we make Mirabel North America's aircraft recycling hub? The two SMEs I mentioned are already there.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Valois.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you very much, Mr. Valois.

We'll now go to Mr. Johns for two and a half minutes.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you, again.

I'm actually going to continue back on that thread.

One thing we've noticed through this study we're doing also has to do with navy procurement and the lack of ship breaking, the lack of responsibility when it comes to recycling our ships. We're hearing this with airplanes as well and with our military aircraft.

Are there policies that Canada needs to develop for the areas in which there are gaps to help ensure that we're being more responsible with our aircraft and that would help support this new sector, the “plane recycling sector” if you want to call it that?

[Guillaume Valois]

Under our legislation, everything pertaining to the organization of the airlines' aircraft fleets is managed internationally. Canada can obviously play a role as an ambassador to other countries, to increase their awareness of the fact that we must all accept our responsibilities and assert a certain form of law in this area. However, if we require airlines around the world to take a more responsible approach to the management of their and-of-life aircraft, we have to give them the tools to carry on those activities. We have to lay the groundwork and create an environment conducive to aircraft recycling.

The European Union has introduced many initiatives in this area, particularly through partnerships with its main builder, which is Airbus, in Spain and certain regions of France. The volume of aircraft recycling is rising in that part of the world, and the operations there are increasingly lucrative. A dynamic is being established.

Can we reproduce that in North America and Canada? Absolutely. All we need to do is demonstrate the political will and show the airlines that they have every interest in doing this. Some aircraft components approaching the end of their lifespan can be recovered and reused in aircraft that are still in service. Savings can be achieved that way.

We could also incentivize Canadian airlines to commit more to recycling aircraft that they've taken out of service and removed from their fleets.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Mr. Johns.

We will now go to Mr. McCauley for five minutes.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Thanks for joining us.

I just have a quick question for you. We do this CF-18 work here. Since the original development deal was signed a couple of decades ago, various companies across Canada—Magellan in Manitoba and others—have received about $2 billion worth in F-35 related work. Are you not confident that with the skill shortage around the world right now, with all of the work that's being done right now on the F-18s, that you will get a similar amount, if not more, for F-35 maintenance, even without a locked-in ITB?

[Guillaume Valois]

I find it hard to make the connection between maintenance operations, the funding that Canada could allocate to those operations and the labour shortage. I believe we all have the tools in hand to maintain our own aircraft. I don't quite understand the question.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

What I'm saying is that if you have all the tools in hand.... I have a level of confidence that Canadians will be able to win international work from the F-35 without its being locked in on an ITB, as has been traditional.

Do you not have the same confidence that you'll be able to win, based on the competence and skill that exist right now?

Could I get a quick answer, please?

[Guillaume Valois]

That goes back to what I said earlier. To preserve a critical mass in a diversified and dynamic aerospace ecosystem, we have to invest in that sector. There isn't a country in the world that isn't investing in…

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I'm sorry. I'm going to interrupt you here because I'm short on time.

I'm going to share the rest of my time with Mr. Paul-Hus.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. McCauley.

Thanks to the witness for being with us.

Mr. Chair, I'd like to introduce the motion of which I've previously given notice, but first, with the committee's consent, I'm prepared to yield five minutes right now to one of my Liberal colleagues, who would like to speak, provided that my turn follows his.

I will be pleased to do so with the committee's consent. Otherwise, I will continue.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

I'm suspending for a second.

We will continue the committee afterwards, and that way we can hear from Mr. Valois. We'll also hear from Mr. Kusmierczyk, who has the next five minutes, and then we will go back to Mr. Paul-Hus.

Mr. Valois, we've had a little technical issue. The questions will come from someone else for the next five minutes.

Mr. Kusmierczyk, you have five minutes.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Valois, for answering our questions.

Normally in this committee, we have a slate of witnesses who share the time and the hot seat. You've been with us as the sole witness for the entire hour. I want to say thank you very much for doing that and for answering all of these diverse questions.

Before I begin with my line of questioning, there was one point I was curious about. You talked about recycling of airplanes. What percentage of an airplane can be recycled? Are we talking about a third of it that can be recycled? Do you have a sense of how much of an airplane can actually be recycled? I'm curious.

[Guillaume Valois]

Around 2010, it was possible to recycle non-ferrous metals equivalent to 30% of an airplane's weight. Several published reports mentioned recycling 80% of everything that could be recovered from an aircraft. It's extremely variable.

But the new generation of aircraft are made with an enormous amount of composite materials, which are more difficult to recycle than aluminum. The amount you can recover is rather variable. That opens the door to research and development work to find ways of recycling these materials and giving them a second life, on the one hand, and on the other, to look into what can be done with these materials and find places they could be used elsewhere.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I appreciate that. I think it highlights that there is a lot of waste that can be recovered, and there is a lot of work to be had there as well for machinists and other skilled workers. Thank you for that.

I want to switch gears and ask you a question that I asked a witness at a previous meeting. I promise that I'm not asking this question because I'm sitting next to the former chair of the women's caucus. I think it's an important question to ask in this sector.

According to a recent Aerospace Industries Association survey, only about 24% of workers in aerospace are women. The International Aviation Womens Association did a similar survey. What they found is that “The aviation industry is not sustainable if more than 50 percent of the population doesn't see aviation as a successful career.”

I want to ask you, how can the aerospace industry help recruit and retain more women into the workforce? How can Canada help in that process to develop a more diverse workforce? What is your organization doing to help that process along?

[Guillaume Valois]

My recommendation is relatively straightforward: jobs in this sector need to be promoted. It would amount to a vote of confidence in the Canadian aerospace industry. Programs need to be established to recruit more workers, because we need a new generation of workers to replace those who will be retiring soon.

Would it be possible to focus on certain age groups or on women, for example, to attract them to these jobs? I don't think these jobs are impossible for anyone to do. It's a matter of wanting to do them. However, this statistic is problematic. We can't deprive ourselves of half he population. We need a next generation of workers, no matter where it might come from. It's important to say so

There are jobs in the aerospace sector, and it's a growth sector for the future on condition that we make the required efforts, that we coordinate, and that we provide the investment needed to promote aerospace jobs.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Mr. Valois.

On behalf of the committee, I want to thank you for being here today. As my colleague Mr. Kusmierczyk indicated, normally we have other witnesses here, so that you as a witness get a breather, but you've handled this very well.

In full disclosure, I will tell you that I paid for my undergraduate degree working for McDonnell Douglas back when the F-18s were started in the 1980s at Malton, and I'm very well aware of the industry. I thank you for everything that you and your colleagues do.

With that said, Mr. Valois, I'll let you go, and we'll now go back to Mr. Paul-Hus.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to introduce my motion, to which I made two corrections. The first was to the word "helicopters", which is a mistake. It should have been "aircraft". The second change was to the date, to make it June 30 rather than June 13.

Here is the motion as it should be worded:

That, in the context of its study of air defence procurement projects, the committee send for documents from Public Service and Procurement Canada related to expenses incurred to date to fix the technical and mechanical problems that have afflicted the CC-295 Kingfisher aircraft since their purchase; and that these documents be submitted no later than noon ET on Monday, June 30, 2022.

This motion is in response to current problems resulting from the contract awarded by the government in 2016 for the Kingfisher aircraft, at an initial amount of $2.75 billion. As it turns out, problems have been encountered. We know that there will be an additional $150 million and that three years will be required before the aircraft can be put into service.

Questions are being asked. What are the technical problems? What costs are associated with these technical problems?

These aircraft are manufactured by Airbus and are already available in other countries. I know that Canada requested 30 modifications, but it's vague. That's why we need to obtain all the documents that explain the technical problems and the related costs.

I believe that the committee should adopt this motion, because we need to know where we're headed. That's part of our work.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Go ahead, Mr. Housefather.