Government Operations Committee on Oct. 20th, 2022

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you very much.

I'll now turn to Mr. Weber.

Mr. Weber, you said that ArriveCAN posed a number of challenges for border officers. One of the difficulties I heard was that some people hadn't entered the requested information into the app. Your officers had to help these people do it. Afterwards, these people were given a quarantine notice.

How could border services resources have been better used in this case? How could they have been used in a way that respects seniors and those who simply don't have a cellphone? How could your services have been better used with respect to ArriveCAN and the pandemic in general?

[Mark Weber]

Thank you for the question.

Our services could have been better used by having us actually do the job we're there to do at the border.

In terms of enforcing public health measures, the only requirement we saw being fulfilled through the ArriveCAN app, practically, was showing that someone was vaccinated. Again, that could have been done by someone showing us their phone or a printed-out piece of paper that showed that they were vaccinated. All the additional questions, time and difficulties people had.... You mentioned elderly people, or people without the technology available to them or who simply didn't understand a lot of those questions, which, to be honest, were complicated for somebody who doesn't work at the border. In many cases, there wasn't any need for any of that, which takes away the need for the app altogether.

The few officers we have at the border should have been concentrating on doing their border officer work, rather than on that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm afraid we're out of time.

Mr. Johns, go ahead for two and a half minutes, please.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

[Technical difficulty—Editor] do you think it's a worthwhile use of public funds to invest in its ongoing maintenance?

Go ahead, Mr. Weber.

[Mark Weber]

I'm sorry, but you cut out for a second.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Knowing that ArriveCAN is now voluntary, do you think it's worth taxpayers' dollars to continue to invest in its ongoing maintenance?

[Mark Weber]

I don't think it is whatsoever, no. We have so many other, more pressing needs. I mentioned a few of them before. We don't really look at rail or marine. We're examining a small fraction of what we should be on land borders. Some of them are falling apart.

I can give you an example. In Hamilton, we have a port of entry with 100 officers sharing one washroom. We're talking about some really desperate situations. I hear of some places where four officers are doing the job, but, just a couple of years ago, there were 20.

We need people. The situation we have now is not sustainable. The money being put into the border has to be put into personnel.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

We know there were major cuts at CBSA under the Conservatives. The Liberals promised to rehire people. Now you're saying that it's dwindling even further.

Can you give us a snapshot of where we're at and what we need?

[Mark Weber]

On overall numbers, I could give you 2,000 to 3,000, but on specific numbers, I could give you examples at some ports.

For example, at the Toronto Pearson airport, our busiest airport in Canada, we had approximately 600 frontline officers in 2017. We have under 300 now. We're at less than half. In Montreal, we were at 260 at the Trudeau airport in 2019. We're under 200. At Vancouver International Airport, we were at 181 in 2009. We're down to 77. At land borders, the situation is no better. At Rainbow Bridge, we're short about 100 officers.

These are not small numbers. We're dealing, in many places, with half or less than half of what we need. It makes the job of keeping our border safe almost impossible.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

This app, which went from $80,000 to $54 million, could have hired 500 of those officers you need.

Mr. Chair, I'm going to move a motion that I circulated to this committee. I believe everyone is in agreement with it. I'll read the motion:

That the Committee recommend the Auditor General conduct a performance audit to evaluate if the Treasury Board provides adequate guidance to federal departments on developing credible cost estimates in relation to make-or-buy decisions to achieve the objectives of best value and sound stewardship and assess departmental compliance with respect to applicable Treasury Board policies and guidance.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks, Mr. Johns. It doesn't meet the notice requirement, but I believe it does reflect the subject at hand.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Okay.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Is there debate on it? Is there anyone opposed?

(Motion agreed to)

Thanks, Mr. Johns. You have about 14 seconds left.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I just want to say to Mark Weber and all CBSA staff, thank you so much for your patience and work. I'm very sorry that you've had to endure this difficult challenge at the border on top of the staffing shortages you already face.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks, Mr. Johns.

We have two and a half minutes for Mrs. Kusie, two and a half minutes for Mrs. Block, and then five minutes for Mr. Kusmierczyk.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

In the span of the creation of your company, how many government RFPs would you say you have participated in?

[Kristian Firth]

I would say 50.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

You'd say 50. How many of those were during the pandemic? Did you receive a single, sole-source contract to do the $44 million across all of those applications, or was every single application a separate contract?

[Kristian Firth]

I'm sorry. Can you repeat that again?

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

You said you received approximately $44 million to design a number of applications over the pandemic.

[Kristian Firth]

No, I'm sorry. We invoiced the federal government that. Not all of those were applications. Those were some existing contracts we already had in place. Our revenue, our accounts receivable, would have been $44 million over those two years. That's over 20 departments too.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Okay, it was $44 million over the two years.

Would you say the ArriveCAN app contract was treated as a sole-source application, or was it a series of subcontracts that you distributed as a middle person?

Were you required to run other RFPs in-house to distribute to your subcontractors?

[Kristian Firth]

No, originally the first contract that the government approached us for was a $2.3-million COVID-19 pandemic response that had mobile capabilities.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Okay.

[Kristian Firth]

Subsequently, nobody thought the pandemic was going to last for two years. Subsequent amendments came to those contracts as the objectives grew, and the functionality had to grow as well as the application.