Government Operations Committee on Oct. 20th, 2022

[The Clerk of the Committee, Mr. Paul Cardegna]

Welcome, honourable members of the committee.

I see a quorum.

I must inform members that the clerk of the committee can only receive motions for the election of the chair. The clerk cannot receive other types of motions, entertain points of order or participate in debate.

We can now proceed to the election of the chair.

Pursuant to Standing Order 106(2), the chair must be a member of the official opposition.

I am now ready to receive motions for the chair.

Go ahead, Mrs. Block.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you very much, Mr. Clerk.

I would like to move that Kelly McCauley be appointed as chair.

[The Clerk]

Thank you.

I'd like to know if there are any other nominations for the position of chair.

The motion proposed by Mrs. Block is that Mr. McCauley be elected chair of the committee.

Is it the pleasure of the committee to adopt the motion?

(Motion agreed to)

I declare Mr. McCauley duly elected chair of the committee, and I invite him to take the chair.

[Some hon. members]

Hear, hear!

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you very much.

I'll just say that I hope everyone gives me more co-operation as chair than I did the previous two chairs.

We're off to a great start. We're going to suspend for a couple of moments due to technical issues. I apologize.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Welcome to meeting number 34 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates, also known as the mighty OGGO.

I apologize to our witnesses. We'll compress the time a bit. We'll go to 4:30 with our two witnesses on the national shipbuilding strategy. We have—

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair. I'm hearing French interpretation over the English.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Was it working earlier for you, Mr. Bains?

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Now it's fine.

No, I'm still hearing the French interpretation when I speak. I've selected the English.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

We will suspend again.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

We're off to a less than auspicious start. We're back in.

Thanks, everyone, for your patience.

Our order of the day is to study the ArriveCAN app.

We have three witnesses with us. They are Mr. Darren Anthony, Mr. Kristian Firth and Mr. Mark Weber.

I understand that Mr. Weber, who is virtual, has been tested for sound and that everything is in accordance with the needs of our translators. Thanks very much.

Mr. Firth, I understand you're starting with a five-minute statement.

[Kristian Firth, Partner, GCstrategies]

It is not five minutes, but I am starting, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Please go ahead.

[Kristian Firth]

Mr. Chair and honourable committee members, I am looking forward to answering the questions you may have and that allow us to get the information out on the table.

As I was the lead on this file, I'm able to answer questions for GCstrategies. My business partner and I have, in combination, over 30 years of IT staffing experience with the Government of Canada.

GCstrategies was founded in 2015 and is an IT staffing firm that has a proven record of successful engagements with government departments. We have built teams and provided subject matter experts for many projects for over 20 federal departments during our tenure. We have built a very strong network of best-in-class talent, which allows us to help our clients find the team they want and have the ability to scale up and down as necessary.

When the government approached us to staff a team under their management and direction for a time, a materiel engagement, we did so. Every individual we used was approved, government security clearances were verified, and they were given their specific tasks and deliverables by the government.

To be clear, we did not build ArriveCAN. We were approached to provide a team for consideration to fulfill certain ArriveCAN requirements. We are, however, very proud of the team we gave the Government of Canada, whom they managed and gave direction to throughout the project. They never missed a deadline, and they completed all their tasks and deliverables.

Thank you. I am now open to questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Great.

Mr. Weber, I understand you have an opening statement.

[Mark Weber, National President, Customs and Immigration Union]

I do, yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

You have up to five minutes, please, sir.

[Mark Weber]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Chair and members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today.

My name is Mark Weber. I'm the national president of the Customs and Immigration Union, which represents personnel working for the Canada Border Services Agency.

From the point of view of the union representing those who, every day, are hard at work protecting our borders and ensuring safe and efficient cross-border operations, what's perhaps most vexing about ArriveCAN is how it was developed without any meaningful consultation with, or input from, frontline officers—not when the idea was first proposed, not when the app was initially developed and definitely not at any point during one of the more than 70 updates that the app had to undergo.

This is certainly par for the course for the agency, and regrettably frontline officers are used to this. Still, it defies reason that an application designed for the front line would be developed without involving those who serve on the front line and who know what works and what doesn't. It defies reason that the government would insist on continuing to inject capital into a project that neither facilitates nor enhances border processes, all the while claiming that it does and without any consideration for what's actually going on at the border.

What defies reason the most is that all of this is going on while our border services are facing a severe staffing crisis. To say that there is a deficit of between 2,000 and 3,000 border officers at this very moment is not an exaggeration. By choosing to sink dozens of millions of dollars into ArriveCAN while its border services' workforce is understaffed and overworked, the federal government is simply gambling with Canada's ability to maintain a safe and properly functioning border.

ArriveCAN is certainly not unique at CBSA. It's one example in a long line of far-reaching technological band-aid solutions in search of a problem, solutions that ultimately fail to enhance border security and effectiveness in any real way. What they also have in common is that they are always developed without involving the frontline personnel who actually work at the border.

From our perspective, what the government and CBSA can learn from the ArriveCAN experience is that, if they want to effectively and properly manage our borders while ensuring that the projects designed to do so are sound, they must rely on and seek out the expertise of frontline border officers in a meaningful way. Our members are proud of the work they do. They're proud of serving Canadians, and I know they would jump at the opportunity to help improve our border processes.

In conclusion, it's my hope that the union's input will assist this committee in its important work.

I thank you and look forward to your questions.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Mr. Chair, I have a point of order. I'm just wondering if it's the practice of this committee to swear in witnesses.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

It has not come up in the past in this committee.

It's funny you should say that. I'm reading The Power of Parliamentary Houses to Send for Persons, Papers and Records, because it's time to be a technical geek.

My understanding—perhaps the clerk will correct me if I'm wrong—is that whether people are sworn in or not, under parliamentary privilege it is still contempt of Parliament to mislead the committee by giving a false statement or false evidence; to refuse, unless related to cabinet confidence, to answer any questions; or to fail to produce documents that this committee might require someone to produce.

That is my understanding.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

That satisfies my question. Thanks.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Okay.

We'll go to you, Mr. Barrett, for six minutes, please.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Thanks very much, Chair.

Thanks to the witnesses for starting early, following those technical glitches that we had.

To GCstrategies and Mr. Firth, how many employees do you have?

[Kristian Firth]

We have two employees: me and my business partner.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Your contract with the Government of Canada lists your work as a residential address. Is that correct? I don't need the address, but is that correct?