Government Operations Committee on Nov. 14th, 2022

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

I'll turn the rest of my time over to Stephanie.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you very much, Chair. Thank you, MP Block, for those excellent questions, and MP Barrett as well.

Look, we're here today and the government is trying to convince Canadians that this was a pandemic environment and this app was done in an effort to keep Canadians safe. Our job here as a committee is to determine that it was done in the most cost-effective, most transparent and most secure way possible.

Let's take a look at what we've seen here today. On the cost, as we've discussed previously, for this app, which ended up costing $54 million, it was reported in The National Post on October 11, 2022, that two companies, Lazer Technologies and TribalScale, said they could have created this app for $250,000. It simply doesn't meet the costing factor.

There's the transparency factor. We look at the ThinkOn discrepancy, as raised by my colleague Michael Barrett. We look at the national security exceptions, which we still don't know about after I asked twice here today. And then there's the release of documents, which we still don't have here today.

Finally, there's the integrity of data, which clearly my colleague, Mr. Barrett, has brought into clarity of question as a result of the clearance questions.

Was this app created in the most cost-effective, most transparent, most secure way possible? We're not convinced. We're not convinced on this side of the table, and I don't think Canadians are either, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you. You have two extra seconds.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks, Mrs. Kusie.

Mr. Housefather, we'll finish with five minutes with you. Then I'll just need about two minutes of the committee's time.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

In response to Mrs. Kusie's most recent statement, I'm going to quote from former Conservative Prime Minister Kim Campbell:

It is quick and easy to attack, to make an accusation, true or false, and disparage someone. Answering and refuting always takes more time. There is an old saying that a lie is halfway around the world before the truth can get its pants on.

I think one thing that is incredibly misleading is this claim that it could have cost $250,000 to create the ArriveCAN app. That's basically, to me, like saying, I have spent two years creating the best possible sports car. I invested tons of research into it. I made 70 upgrades to the car. I tested it at a level that it could run on every racetrack on every surface in the world to meet the highest safety standards. Then someone, two years later, comes along and builds the core of the car, never having had to actually drive by anybody, never having to meet any safety standard, and saying it's the same thing.

Even the people who ran these companies do not suggest it could have cost $250,000. They even admit that they built the front end of an app. They copied the front end of an app, with no back-office link to the CBSA's system, with no security with respect to vaccinations that was required for multiple jurisdictions, etc.

My question for the CIO of the CBSA is, can you please tell me, is it true that you could have built this app for $250,000?

[Erin O'Gorman]

No, it is not.

[Kelly Belanger]

No, it is not.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Can you expand on why it is not?

[Kelly Belanger]

There were, as you mentioned, over 70 functionality changes. We had exemptions for essential workers we had to include the business rules for: for the truckers, the nurses, the cross-border workers. We had to ensure that the free flow of goods and services into the country continued. We had traveller self-service reporting. We had symptoms and quarantine we had to look at. We had scanning of documents. We had pre-arrival testing we had to include.

As you said, there was proof of vaccination, ensuring that we could validate and authenticate those items. We had to then look at, as we were reopening the border and reopening to foreign nationals, how to do that. How do we get those people in to increase the number of travellers crossing the border?

There's absolutely no way we could have done all of that for $250,000.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you. That was very clear.

I really appreciated your testimony today. You've always been very clear in all your answers.

My question now is for the CFO of the CBSA.

Another oft-repeated theme that I've heard 20 times today is that you spent $54 million on the app. Previously, you gave me a number of $34.8 million that you said was spent, including amounts that you've internally accounted for.

Let me again go back: Does the $34.8 million number that you gave me include the $8 million for IBISKA, or the $110,000 dollars?

[Jonathan Moor]

The number I quoted you was for all of the external costs not associated directly with internal costs.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I understand, but again, you put on a list $8 million for IBISKA, and then you acknowledged today that $110,000 of that $8 million went to the development of ArriveCAN.

In the $34 million figure you gave me, was it the $110,000 or the $8 million?

[Jonathan Moor]

The $8 million is a wider contract for other services.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

You're not answering my question, sir.

I am asking you, in the $34 million that you said you paid to third parties for ArriveCAN, is it $110,000 that you properly included, or did you over-calculate and use the whole $8 million?

[Jonathan Moor]

It was $110,000.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you. That is what I was asking.

Now, you also mentioned that in the $34 million, there were monies paid to another government department, which weren't really paid out but were through an internal agreement. What was that amount?

[Jonathan Moor]

We paid $7.5 million to Service Canada for the call centre. That covered 650,000 calls from members of the public.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

But it wasn't paid out to a third party. It was an internal transfer within the Government of Canada. What was the actual amount paid out to third parties outside of government?

[Jonathan Moor]

I think I'll have to get back to you on the detail of that, because what we accounted for in the $34.8 million is all of the external costs we incurred. That includes the public sector, but it also includes the private sector.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I understand, but public sector costs between government departments are not paid outside of government. Would you get back to me with that?

Could I correctly say that we have not spent and paid to third parties $54 million at this stage?

[Jonathan Moor]

Not to external third parties—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I have to interrupt you there, because your time is up.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks, Mr. Housefather.

Ms. Thompson, I laugh with joy at your dogs back there. It's great.

That's our time, folks.

I see you, Mr. Johns. I'll get to you in a moment.

We've received all of the speaking notes, but I require the committee's consent on an issue. To be formal, I'll read it out: That speaking notes presented today by CBSA, PSPC, Public Health Agency of Canada and Shared Services be taken as read and appended to the evidence of today's meeting.

(Motion agreed to)

[See appendix—Remarks by Erin O'Gorman]

[See appendix—Remarks by Michael Mills]

[See appendix—Remarks by Jennifer Lutfallah]

[See appendix—Remarks by Kristina Casey]

That's wonderful.

Witnesses, thank you very much.

I want to follow up on a couple of things. There were quite a few questions left outstanding that you promised to get back to us on. I would ask that you please provide that to the committee in a swift manner and not leave us trying to chase you down.

Ms. O'Gorman, I realize that it's a lot of documents. I will state, as chair, that I am disappointed at the delay in getting even an estimate from the CBSA on how long the documents will be for translation. I would ask that you get back to us as soon as possible. I express, as chair, my disappointment at CBSA for continuing to drag this out.

Mr. Johns, we have a hard close at one o'clock, but please go ahead.