Government Operations Committee on Dec. 5th, 2022

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you.

Mr. Ducharme, would you like to weigh in?

[Philip Ducharme]

Yes. Actually, as of August 2021, the requirement of a third of the workforce, if there are six or more, has been lifted. This helps our indigenous businesses as they grow, especially in certain sectors, where it's hard to keep up that resource of a third of the employees being indigenous.

Indigenous businesses were the only ones held to account for this by the federal government in any of their social procurement or platforms. That requirement was not there for a woman-owned business that only had male employees. Hers was still considered a woman-owned business. If a minority-owned business has non-minority employees, they are still.... Again, that was an extra level imposed on indigenous businesses.

It is a bit contentious, but when indigenous businesses have the opportunity, we are going to hire our own people. I think it's up to us to determine that, not the federal government saying we're not a business if we don't meet that third. I think that has been eliminated.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you for the clarification, and I apologize for being incorrect in missing that.

Madame LaBillois, in the departmental results for 2021-22, Public Services and Procurement Canada increased the percentage for participation in procurement processes by businesses owned by indigenous people. Pardon me, but I'm getting to the point. The result was a 4% decrease in participation.

Why do you think that is?

[Victoria LaBillois]

I think surviving the pandemic was a challenge for everybody, and the accessibility of some of the tools put in place by the federal government for businesses during the pandemic may not have applied to indigenous businesses.

I'm not saying this is the blanket reason, but look at the tremendous amount of resources that go into responding to an RFP. It's an opportunity cost. As an entrepreneur, where are you going to put your time and resources? If you put them into responding to an RFP and you're not successful, and not even getting feedback as to why you're not successful, are you going to apply again? You need to determine where the best investment of time and energy is. Perhaps it's not in the procurement strategy, as it exists today.

Thank you.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you.

What do you think the government is not doing to increase the participation?

[Victoria LaBillois]

I think there are two things. One of them I just mentioned, which is creating those relationships with indigenous businesses through procurement and PSIB coordinators who exist in all departments. If they don't know about indigenous businesses that exist, we're not going to get projects deemed as set-asides through the procurement strategy. It's about relationship building, decentralizing this, having boots on the ground in different regions and understanding what the indigenous business community looks like.

Second, it's about giving feedback, mentoring and having to navigate that response to RFPs.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I think that's our time.

Mr. Kusmierczyk, you have five minutes.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you so much to all the witnesses for this tremendous conversation. I wish we could continue this the entire day, to be honest with you. These are tremendous insights, so thank you for that.

Mr. Ducharme, I think you mentioned in your testimony that the natural resources sector was leading the charge in indigenous procurement. Are there other sectors that you see as primed right now with tremendous opportunities for growth in indigenous services and procurement?

[Philip Ducharme]

Again, I said national defence. I think if you look at the spending and all the work that's coming on through national defence and with the shipbuilding and all of those opportunities, there are great opportunities for indigenous businesses. My fellow presenter Victoria knows well about some of the opportunities that come in within the shipbuilding that was going out to Atlantic Canada. Again, when you look at indigenous businesses, a large portion of our certified indigenous businesses are in the IT sector. There are opportunities in there.

Again, indigenous businesses are all over the place. We can't be pigeonholed by saying that we're only in natural resources or all in one area. Indigenous businesses are very resilient and innovative. I think that with the correct tools and help from the federal government, we'll be able to be full participants in every procurement opportunity the federal government brings forward.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I appreciate that.

When I was working for a regional innovation centre back home in Windsor, I was proud to spearhead an initiative called “Supporting Aboriginal Youth Entrepreneurs in Windsor and Essex”. It was a wonderful initiative. From that initiative, we saw how important networking and mentoring opportunities are.

Can you talk a bit about the programming CCAB has to support young indigenous entrepreneurs, and whether there's a special role the federal government can play in helping to nurture young entrepreneurs in the indigenous communities?

[Philip Ducharme]

Previously, we were focused on entrepreneurs regardless of whether they were young or seasoned. We are getting more input from young entrepreneurs who are coming. We work with JEDI, which is a joint economic development initiative based out of New Brunswick.

We spoke last week to a forum of young entrepreneurs who are starting their businesses, and we work with them. We also provide young entrepreneurship awards, and I think that's really helpful to indigenous businesses. Any time our people can be recognized for the success we've had, it makes us proud to see someone who looks like us succeeding and making a difference.

We provide grants to small businesses. A lot of them go to the young entrepreneurs. They're small grants. We've been fortunate enough to get funding from our corporate members. It's a $2,500 grant. We're lucky that the grants that have been given to us allow the indigenous businesses to spend so much time programming our grants.

There are a lot of requirements or barriers to what they could utilize that money for. I think the partners we have realize that indigenous businesses know what they want. If you're going to say that we can spend this money but we can only do that, is it really beneficial to our businesses?

We work. We do networking. Networking is the most important thing. The more you can get out there, the more confidence you can build. It's hard to get a contract over the telephone. You build that relationship and it's going to grow over time. Networking is something that's very important, and we really want to promote our indigenous businesses.

An area we really want to focus on is young indigenous entrepreneurs. The federal government can help. They can provide programming and support. We're not a government-funded organization. We get some project money, but overall, it's hard. Resources are limited out there, but I think the federal government can step in and do more.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

You mentioned the role of—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm afraid that's our time, Mr. Kusmierczyk.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Mrs. Kusie, you have three minutes, then Mr. Housefather has three minutes, and then we'll finish up.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you very much, Chair.

I'm going to go back to the departmental results for 2021-22 and go to Madame LaBillois.

We talked a bit about what the government should have been doing to ensure levels didn't decrease. As well, we had the input there from Mr. Ducharme, but it also notes in the departmental results that there wasn't even a target to increase participation by. Do you think setting a target would be beneficial, Madame Ms. LaBillois?

[Victoria LaBillois]

Absolutely, and the target, I believe, should remain a floor rather than a ceiling.

For instance, we know that the rollout with the modernization of the procurement strategy will happen over three years. During some of these discussions, certain departments were prioritized. My question at that time, when we were talking about prioritizing departments, was, how are priorities determined? It was linked to those departments that were most ready to increase their indigenous spend.

I refuted this by saying: “Well, what is there at these departments? What is the proximity to indigenous communities and indigenous businesses across the country?” It was more about satisfying a department's readiness than it was about proximity to projects where departments would be spending and that indigenous businesses could access. Who we are trying to accommodate with this new policy, I think should be one of the questions we ask ourselves as we move forward.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

What do you think is the impact of not setting a target?

[Victoria LaBillois]

If there's not a target set, at the end of the year we say, “Oh well, we tried.” How did we try? I think if you have benchmarking, reporting, tying this to bonuses and shedding a light by having a department-by-department reporting mechanism in place, it will highlight to us where the issues and challenges are and where we can focus our attention.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

What target do you think Public Services and Procurement Canada should be setting?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Could we have a very brief answer, please?

[Victoria LaBillois]

Look at the indigenous population of the region and set it accordingly.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you—

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Chair, are you sure? I wanted to go back to the Oilers game—

[Voices]

Oh, oh!