Government Operations Committee on Dec. 5th, 2022

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks.

We have Ms. Thompson for six minutes, please.

[Joanne Thompson, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to all of the witnesses.

I would like to open by acknowledging that I am on the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe nation. Welcome to every witness here.

Mr. Ducharme, perhaps I could begin with you. Thank you for your opening comments. I'd really like to be able to expand on what you have already provided. Would you share some background and more information, please, on what your role is with the Canadian Council for Aboriginal Business? Thank you.

[Philip Ducharme]

Thanks, Ms. Thompson.

In my role as the vice-president of entrepreneurship and procurement, I have a number of roles at CCAB. The one that's most relevant to today's hearing is “Supply Change”. Supply Change is CCAB's trademarked indigenous procurement strategy, which we started in 2018. This strategy aims to increase indigenous participation in all buying entities within Canada—not just the federal government, but all levels of government and corporate Canada.

We have a number of different pillars within that strategy that bring indigenous businesses together with buyers. We have aboriginal procurement champions, who currently have 117 corporations in all sectors and industries across the country that have signed on to help us increase participation with indigenous businesses within their supply chains, either directly or indirectly.

We also provide learning experiences for our certified indigenous businesses. As Ray talked about with some of the programs they do, we have also done some of that stuff with indigenous businesses as they try to navigate federal procurement.

On the previous question about what would get more indigenous businesses on the directory, it would be simplifying the procurement process for procurement within the federal government. Small businesses, indigenous businesses, do not have the capacity or the resources to respond to these overwhelmingly admin-heavy RFPs that the federal government does.

Again, we are very focused on bringing our indigenous businesses to the rest of Canada to ensure they're included.

[Joanne Thompson, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you.

You referenced this in your opening comments, but could you share your experiences with past challenges that indigenous communities have faced and still continue to face with economic business development? Basically, just provide more information and maybe some examples of what groups are facing.

[Philip Ducharme]

Well, I think that in the past indigenous people felt quite often that they were excluded, that there was a bias within the federal government, and even within the procurement practices with all the mandatory requirements. One little mistake and you were automatically wiped out from that. It seemed like there were so many requirements, which made it impossible for someone to do it. If they didn't upload one document, they were automatically deemed non-compliant and weren't even reviewed. That was a big issue.

The bid bonding is another thing. As our indigenous businesses grow, they have trouble with the bid bonding. I know that in eastern Canada there was a business based on a reserve that tried to get bonding. They were told that because they were based on the first nation, on the reserve, they weren't going to be eligible for it. That has been an issue.

As well, there's the capacity that Ray was talking about. When an RFP comes out, it's too late at that point for our indigenous businesses to grow to be able to meet that requirement. We need to educate our businesses on the opportunities—where they are going to be and what requirements they have when that opportunity comes out—so that they will be successful and will be compliant for the opportunities.

[Joanne Thompson, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you.

You and other witnesses have referenced the importance of an institute. How do you feel an institute, that coming together, would be able to assist in the process of information gathering but also in support once the application process has begun?

[Philip Ducharme]

I think that together we're stronger. At CCAB, Supply Change is, in essence, what an institute would be. We've been doing it on a very tight budget and with tight resources as well. Anyone who knows resources knows that HR resources right now are a big issue. We have been doing it, and I have to say that I'm quite proud of what we have accomplished with our work at CCAB.

Again, we are a member-based organization. We work with the ones who have joined us as members. We've done the certification. Ideally, this would be open to all indigenous businesses. Again, together we are stronger, but I do believe that we've actually laid the pathway for what an indigenous institute would look like.

[Joanne Thompson, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you.

Am I good, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

You have one minute.

[Joanne Thompson, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Mr. Metatawabin, you're in the room, so I certainly want to provide you the opportunity to answer a question.

You referenced this in your opening comments. Could you speak about the National Aboriginal Capital Corporations Association in a little more detail? Especially now that the conversation has begun, I think more detail would be helpful.

Thank you.

[Shannin Metatawabin]

Thank you very much.

Thirty-five years ago, the government recognized that indigenous people were not participating in the economy. One of the things they did is that they created a network of indigenous financial institutions on par with the Business Development Bank of Canada to encourage the economic growth of our community.

They put together a program that provides some enabling programs to support indigenous entrepreneurs to access financing. What they found is that they couldn't get mainstream financing because of the systemic barriers, lack of generational wealth and the legislative barriers that continue to persist today, so they created a program with $240 million from government, and they've recycled it 15 times to $3.3 billion in lending from coast to coast to coast.

We provide support to Métis entrepreneurs, Inuit entrepreneurs and first nation entrepreneurs. We've been doing this for 35 years. Some of our IFIs are celebrating 35 years of impacting the community.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks very much.

Ms. Vignola, you have six minutes, please.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

My first question will be for Ms. LaBillois, but before I begin, I want to make it clear that I am going to name an act whose title makes my hair stand on end. I really don't like to say it. I think this act has always caused and is still causing enormous harm to first nations, and I deplore that. That said, it has to be named.

Ms. LaBillois, in your presentation, you mention the difficulties and obstacles caused by the Indian Act. Since 1867, this act has treated first nations as minor children unable to make their own decisions and have full responsibility for them, especially on reserves. It's worse for people who want to start their own business because, as you mentioned, they don't have access to capital. It's especially difficult for businesses established on reserves.

In a minute or a minute and a half, could you give us some more details on the problems that the Indian Act causes for first nations entrepreneurs?

[Victoria LaBillois]

Thank you for your question.

I also deplore that act.

I will respond in English to speak faster, to answer in one minute. I'll give you two quick examples.

One is the certificate of possession. I live on reserve. In my community, I cannot own the land according to this law. I can possess the land. I have a certificate of possession. Therefore, I cannot use the land that I own in the community against obtaining a loan.

Second, if I am trying to obtain a piece of equipment, I must sign an affidavit. For example, I'm buying an excavator, which is in excess of $150,000 or $200,000. To do that, I must sign an affidavit that my equipment will not be stored in my community, that it will only be used for work off my community and it will always be off community, so that in the event of non-payment, the asset can be seized.

I must ask permission from chief and council. Asking our elected politicians for permission to be running my business or for assistance with a ministerial loan I find very offensive, especially in 2022.

Thank you.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I'm trying to find the right exclamation. I hesitate among “wow!”, “disgusting!” and downright “yuck!”. I'm sorry. As you say, it's 2022. It's unacceptable that people are still stuck like this today.

In your presentation, you bring up a potential solution for first nations to have better access to procurement, which is through the creation of a new indigenous-led procurement institution.

How would this institution help indigenous people have better access to procurement?

[Victoria LaBillois]

Let me begin by sharing with you the philosophy of “nothing about us without us”.

How do I think an indigenous-led institute would help indigenous businesses access procurement opportunities from the federal, provincial and corporate organizations? An indigenous-led organization would have a sound knowledge of the landscape of indigenous economic reconciliation. It would have a sound understanding of the definition of indigenous wealth. It is indigenous businesses that hire indigenous people. This is an anecdotal truth that we see across our communities.

We need to design our own institutions that are responsive to the unique realities that exist in Inuit, Métis and first nation communities, both on and off reserve. There is not a one-size-fits-all or a pan-indigenous approach. We have three different jurisdictional groups. We have different laws in place, as you have just mentioned with the Indian Act, applying to status Indians on reserve. There is a mishmash of regulations that are hindering our progress.

We need our own people leading our own institutions to help drive indigenous economic reconciliation.

Thank you.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Do you also think that this procurement institution would make it easier for you to access capital, or would the Indian Act really need to be completely overhauled for that to happen?

[Victoria LaBillois]

I don't think the priority of an indigenous procurement institute is to facilitate access to capital. That is work that we do that is continuing. Growing the skill sets and capacity of indigenous businesses in accessing procurement opportunities—that's where I see the importance of this institute.

That's on the demand side. On the supply side of the procurement equation, the procurement institute would also be working with corporate Canada and with the federal government in ensuring that its procurement processes are responsive and realistic in meeting the needs of indigenous businesses to access these important opportunities.

Thank you.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Great. That's our time.

Mr. Johns, you have six minutes, please.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you.

I also acknowledge that we're doing business today on the unceded lands of the Algonquin and Anishinabe people. I live in Nuu-chah-nulth territory in the Hupačasath and Tseshaht communities and nations.

I'll start with you, Mr. Metatawabin. First, 50% of the population is indigenous in large areas of my riding. The 5% threshold doesn't work. It should be much higher. In Nunavut, 80% of the population is Inuit.

Can you speak about how that needs to be fixed and adjusted? Maybe you can also speak about jurisdictions where there has been more success than Canada has had in terms of ensuring that the equity is fair when it comes to indigenous peoples and procurement.

[Shannin Metatawabin]

I think we have to recognize that Canada is very systemic in its exclusion of the indigenous community. As an example, today a building project in an indigenous community doesn't allow the indigenous community that has an economic corporation to even be eligible for that project, to bid and be successful in that project, so that the money would stay in that community and be socially impacting that community and those families. In my opening statement, I said that food security would be improved by half.

We need to improve the services throughout. This is not a solution of procurement services Canada improving and enhancing its services to say that they can meet the target. It's a bigger problem than that. We need to change the way the system progresses. The example I use is the National Aboriginal Capital Corporations Association. Indigenous Services Canada used to deliver our program 30 years ago. Their loss rate was 75%. Our loss rate is 3%. That's an indigenous organization delivering to our own people. We have deep social connections to our people. We know who is in the community. We do our due diligence. We ensure that it will be a successful operation, because it's for our children's children.

If you are looking at a procurement process that's going to be created by our people, we want to make sure that it's going to be successful. We are going to ensure that the right businesses are eligible. We're undertaking right now an indigenous business definition project to ensure that we have a new way of looking at what an indigenous business is.

All these processes have to be linked together. We need to have, to go back to Ray's point, a data link to connect everybody's database to one database so that everybody can rely on it.

Thank you.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I appreciate that.

Carol Anne Hilton is from my riding. She's from the Hesquiaht nation. She wrote a whole book on indigenomics. I've mentioned before how important her work is.

Perhaps expanding on what you just talked about, can you please comment on how impediments for indigenous businesses accessing capital are creating obstacles to meeting the federal government's target for indigenous procurement and going beyond what their target is? Maybe you can share some of your thoughts on how access to capital can be improved.

[Shannin Metatawabin]

The systemic barriers that indigenous people face start with legislation, the Indian Act. There is still an act called the Indian Act, which makes me a ward of the state. I'm not even my own person. I'm basically a child of the government. We don't own our own lands on our communities. We can't take security. We don't have any generational wealth because we've been excluded from the economy for so long. Everybody was able to buy a house, but we were not allowed to buy houses. We don't have money that we can pass down to our kids, so we're basically starting from zero. We really need to ensure that we produce the access to capital.

NACCA recently launched the indigenous growth fund. This is an institutional-grade investment tool that allows the private sector to invest in an investment vehicle that will, in turn, be accessed by our members, who can pass it on to our indigenous entrepreneurs. There is a vehicle for access to capital that will be perpetual into the future and will continue to grow. Investors and social-impact investors.... That is $35 trillion globally that we'll be able to earn in interest from our market. These are creating tools to plug into the indigenous economy.

We're at the very infant stage of developing this indigenous economy; 300-plus court cases affirm our rights and title to our lands. Major projects, resource projects, the drive to critical minerals, are going go through our communities and our lands. The sooner government and corporations accept the fact that we need to be partnered with indigenous communities and create the conditions to allow us to participate, the more prosperous Canada will be.

Thank you.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Ms. LaBillois, do you want to also comment on access to capital and give us your thoughts on that as well?