Evidence of meeting #45 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was digital.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:55 p.m.
Senior Fellow, Centre for Free Expression, Toronto Municipal University, As an Individual
Absolutely, yes.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB
Excellent.
Do you think if this bill were implemented, it would make public servants more likely to come forward about cases of wrongdoing for big projects such as the ArriveCAN app?
4:55 p.m.
Senior Fellow, Centre for Free Expression, Toronto Municipal University, As an Individual
Yes, I do.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB
Excellent.
I'm sure you're aware as well that the government recently decided to put together a task force to look at reforming whistle-blower protections. Do you think this task force is necessary, or do you think that the framework is already available, given the 2017 report that was released?
4:55 p.m.
Senior Fellow, Centre for Free Expression, Toronto Municipal University, As an Individual
I could answer that by saying there is an article I wrote in The Hill Times today that gives a long answer to that, and people should perhaps read it.
However, no, I don't think it was necessary. I think the priority is to put in place the recommendations that are already made, and then there is going to be lots more room for improvement after that.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB
Certainly.
Do you think 12 to 18 months is the right time frame for this task force to make its assessment, especially given that now we've had not only the 2017 OGGO report—the mighty OGGO report—but as well this recent private member's bill?
December 8th, 2022 / 4:55 p.m.
Senior Fellow, Centre for Free Expression, Toronto Municipal University, As an Individual
I don't see any purpose in the task force until these other steps have been taken. Once you have a baseline in place of what's already been recommended, then I think there will be plenty of room for further discussion, because we still will be far from internationally respected best practices.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB
Is it safe to say, then, that the current Liberal government could implement something at this time, that perhaps this task force isn't necessary, and perhaps is even a delay in implementing information in a framework that already exists?
4:55 p.m.
Senior Fellow, Centre for Free Expression, Toronto Municipal University, As an Individual
I think it doesn't really matter what this task force does as long as this doesn't impede the urgent implementation of what's already been recommended.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB
Well, 18 months is quite an imposition. I think it's already being impeded.
Do you think that some of the work of the Public Servants Disclosure Protection Act review task force would overlap with the parliamentary process involved in Bill C-290?
4:55 p.m.
Senior Fellow, Centre for Free Expression, Toronto Municipal University, As an Individual
I'm sorry. Could you say that again, please?
4:55 p.m.
Senior Fellow, Centre for Free Expression, Toronto Municipal University, As an Individual
I don't know what the task force will come up to, because it's starting from a fairly low base in terms of knowledge and experience, I think. There's an awful lot of work to catch up on, the work that this committee did. It would take them months to complete the work that's already been done.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB
What role do you think the Treasury Board should be taking to ensure that public servants who witness mass wrongdoing, such as with the ArriveCAN app, will come forward and be willing to report it?
4:55 p.m.
Senior Fellow, Centre for Free Expression, Toronto Municipal University, As an Individual
The law needs to be reformed. The Treasury Board must start conducting proper oversight of the departmental processes, which is its responsibility. Yes, those are the main things.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
5 p.m.
Conservative
5 p.m.
Conservative
Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB
That's okay. Thank you so much. That's very kind.
Mr. Hutton, do you think not having adequate whistle-blower protection for public servants undermines the ability of parliamentarians to get answers about mismanagement of government projects such as the ArriveCAN app?
5 p.m.
Senior Fellow, Centre for Free Expression, Toronto Municipal University, As an Individual
Yes, it certainly does.
5 p.m.
Conservative
Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB
Without adequate whistle-blower protections, do you think parliamentarians and Canadians will get the full answer about what happened with the ArriveCAN app?
5 p.m.
Senior Fellow, Centre for Free Expression, Toronto Municipal University, As an Individual
As I just said in my remarks, I think that's the central problem here—that without that safe disclosure channel, you're not going to hear from people who may have information that's unwanted.
5 p.m.
Conservative
Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB
Do you believe there are more wrongdoings occurring because of a lack of whistle-blower protections?
5 p.m.
Senior Fellow, Centre for Free Expression, Toronto Municipal University, As an Individual
Certainly. If you look at the other channels people can use.... I ran a small charity for some time. We offered a free helpline service. I was getting inquiries at the rate of more than 100 a year. That's more than the official agency that's supposed to be protecting people.
