Government Operations Committee on Dec. 12th, 2022

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I'm going to actually stay on that.

Mr. Wheeler, I think Ms. Vignola asked some pretty direct questions. My question is this: Do you believe that Canadians deserve more transparency about the activities and expenses of the Office of the Secretary to the Governor General? If so, how might that be achieved?

[Stewart Wheeler]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the honourable member for the question.

I can tell you that the office of protocol is committed to transparency and the sound management of funds, and everything that we spend for high-level visits is regularly released through public accounts, in addition to being requested through a variety of OPQs and access to information requests.

I'm very proud of the fact that our office is very transparent with the—

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Do you think you're going to do more now, after we've gone into this depth in this study, to ensure that the public has a better understanding of where those expenses are?

Getting back to Mrs. Block's question, she said that in 2004 the committee tabled a report with recommendations about the government's role in funding. However, there wasn't a government response because Parliament was dissolved.

I know you didn't read the report, but do you think there's value for this committee in re-examining this issue to make recommendations that reflect Canadians' expectations two decades later? Has anyone else read the report who may want to respond?

[Christine MacIntyre]

Mr. Johns, as I mentioned to Mrs. Block, we will be going back to that report from 2004 to look at those recommendations.

What I wanted to talk about regarding this kind of ongoing review of all that we do, is that, what we're trying to do, going forward, is to ensure that we don't wait for a report, a committee or something else to take a look at these things, that we continually review our processes, that we do that on an ongoing basis, that it becomes part of everything we do, and that we look at options that will not necessarily be the same response in each situation.

Just having those discussions, looking at ways to try to find efficiencies and developing a system where people are encouraged to raise flags are all part of what we are committed to doing, going forward.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Okay. I appreciate that. That's the answer we were hoping for.

I'm going to give my remaining time, as agreed, to Ms. Vignola. Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

You have two and a half minutes, Ms. Vignola.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Johns.

Ms. MacIntyre, when you came and testified before the committee on September 22, you said you had eaten something ordinary, which was eggs. Earlier I mentioned the famous Beef Wellington, which I think is far from ordinary—I don't know if it is for you. It also looks like they paid $565 for a few pounds of ice cubes. As for the lemons and limes, you said they weren't putting them out anymore or getting them directly in Canada.

I also noticed that the cost for portable freezers was about $3,100. I don't know if that's Canadian dollars, UAE dirhams or Kuwaiti dinars. There's quite a phenomenal difference between those two. One is worth 37 cents on the dollar, while the other is worth $4.44 per dollar. I saw work was done for 173,000 dinars; one dinar is worth about 4.44 Canadian dollars.

Nothing ordinary about that.

From now on, how are you going to make sure it's ethically responsible?

They are accountable for the whole process, because they were caught red-handed. It's been a long time.

I don't doubt your dedication or professionalism. I just want to ensure that parliamentarians, who did not get answers before the media, and Quebecers and Canadians, who are tightening their belts, will never get a slap in the face like this again. In Quebec, 15% of the people rely on food assistance. I have needed those services in the past. I can tell you, you have to swallow your pride, and I'm not the proud type, so that gives you an idea of how difficult it is.

How are you going to ensure that this never happens again?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm afraid that's our time. Perhaps you'll have to get back to the committee in written form on that last question.

Mr. Barrett, you have five minutes, please.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Thanks, Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here today.

I filed an Order Paper question and the response to that inquiry to the ministry triggered all of this. If that wasn't in your briefing notes, you're welcome. It is great to have the opportunity to have you all at committee today.

That OPQ response, which was submitted in April and brought this matter to light, caused us to examine this particular trip. I appreciate that some changes are being proposed and that some have been implemented. My question is about proactive transparency.

I appreciate that there will be mechanisms put in place to limit expenses. We heard in testimony today that the office of the Governor General is not in any way involved in the catering, but on the invoices it says that there are special requests for a sandwich—singular—for $53. I would say that's an impressive sandwich. There's also a special request for salad for $271. Having to eat a salad is one thing. Paying $271 for that punishment is something else. These must be quite remarkable dishes.

In terms of the Order Paper question and the access to information request that the Canadian Taxpayers Federation discussed and released, it's important that we were able to get information through those means. What is the office of the Governor General prepared to do, on a go-forward basis, to proactively and transparently publish their expenses for trips like this, respecting, of course, security concerns and the individual privacy of the people involved?

For example, for members of the House of Commons, there are itemized disclosures of their expenses, published quarterly. Would it not be easier to put in place a system in which this is the practice for Rideau Hall, rather than to have to examine invoices and publish those and translate those as they come up and then have all of you folks, who do important work, appear at committee to discuss them, because that disclosure wasn't done?

[Christine MacIntyre]

Thank you for the question.

The costs of these visits are actually already released, as Mr. Wheeler has described, through public accounts and through the office of protocol, which is responsible for the procurement and the accountability of the contracts. That includes travel and many of the elements you've talked about today, sir.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

With respect, ma'am, the detail is lacking. Otherwise, we wouldn't have submitted an Order Paper question and we would not have seen the responses from the access to information request as revealed by the Canadian Taxpayers Federation. The level of detail is lacking. That's where we found the unacceptable costs.

[Christine MacIntyre]

Sir, I would refer this to my colleagues from Global Affairs and the Royal Canadian Air Force. They are the contracting authorities and are responsible for these costs.

I will share the floor with my colleagues, sir.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

The question is about transparency.

[Christine MacIntyre]

Absolutely.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

The expenses are incurred for the Governor General to execute her responsibilities. Her responsibilities are important. The detail that is lacking in the information that is available through public accounts is, as we have seen, not acceptable to the public. What steps are you collectively prepared to take so that, on an ongoing basis, these improved measures that you're taking to reduce costs are reflected in a publicly available, proactively disclosed document?

[Stewart Wheeler]

Thank you to the honourable member.

As Ms. MacIntyre has indicated, our standard practice currently is to proactively release all of the spending per visit for every visit undertaken abroad by, and paid for by, the office of protocol. It does have a breakdown so that you can see the amount spent for accommodation, for transportation, etc. We will, of course, continue to do that.

As we've mentioned, the general and I have a committee that has been set up to look at the specific questions that were raised and for which we were able to see that the system in place wasn't sufficient for the oversight of some of those exorbitant costs related to catering. We have addressed those and will address them going forward. We'll continue to make those savings on behalf of Canadian taxpayers.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks, Mr. Barrett.

We go over to Vancouver and to Mr. Bains for five minutes, please.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for joining us. There's a lot of disturbing testimony here on some of these costs. I'm just as surprised as Madame Vignola on the beef Wellington. I've never even seen it except for maybe on TV somewhere. I'm a bit encouraged by the fact that there are some changes taking place and some actions being taken on eliminating some of these things.

My first question is for Mr. Wheeler. Can you confirm if there are post-trip reviews to determine how the final costs compare with pre-trip budget submissions?

[Stewart Wheeler]

Thank you very much for the question.

Yes. When all of the final invoices come in from the various Canadian missions abroad, from the various suppliers and contractors, and are paid by our office or by other ministries that are involved in the delivery of a visit, those are then recovered by the appropriate ministry in the appropriate budget. There is a final accounting of an entire visit. For those that are covered by the office of protocol, as I mentioned, those are proactively released through the public accounts. It does take, sometimes, a matter of months before all of those invoices and those various journaling among ministries happen.

Yes, we do look at the overall costs, and I approve the public proactive release of that under the public accounts.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Just to continue a bit on that, after that review of those costs is done, has a cap ever been considered, such as a price cap on what should be set based on an acceptable average?

[Stewart Wheeler]

The important thing to remember is that the Governor General is being asked, on behalf of the government, to achieve important foreign policy objectives by international travel. The amounts for any given visit can range quite considerably depending on the locations visited, the complexity of the visit and the level of the visit. It would depend on whether it's a working visit or a state visit and whether there's a delegation travelling with the Governor General, which often includes parliamentarians, ministers and prominent Canadian experts who are chosen to come and support the Governor General and assist in advancing Canadian priorities in a given country or location.

There are so many factors that it would be very difficult to suggest that an international trip by the Governor General would need to fall into a certain package. I can say that the overall costs are recovered by my office in an amount that is established by the Treasury Board and the federal budget. We work very hard to make sure we are managing soundly those funds, so that there are funds available to support the required transportation and visits abroad by those dignitaries.

While we have uncovered some exorbitant costs, which we hope to bring down in the catering section of the invoices that were released, I can reassure the honourable member and the committee that the overall costs of this visit were in line with similar costs for high-level visits of this nature in the past.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you. My next question—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm afraid that's your time, Mr. Bains.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Okay. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

We have Mrs. Block for five minutes, please.